Scars of Velious
Well, I would have to say... "any lucky sob that can get their grubbies on it"
I want them for my, cleric. Simple reason only, my wisdom stats are pretty much maxed, all of my other stats are gimp. However, the real thing about it is, at the stage in the game where I am at... hitpoints and mana are king. The rest is a matter of convenience, because I hate running across 12 zones for my body.
Do`Vassir's Gauntlets of Might
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[Drops | Comments ]
DropsThis item is found on creatures. Temple of Veeshan
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Scholar
43 posts
#REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 28 2004 at 4:45 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I very much doubt this event is going to be farmed by many guilds, people do probably wanna see it once and after will prolly get sick of it. For those of you claiming it should go to bards, I guess it can as well with many other classes. But if you think about it the gloves would also fit fairly well on a mt. 15 cha isn't much but it's better then some other items have to offer. Cha is a check on Divine intervention too.
#REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 28 2002 at 11:54 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Heres the deal with stacking as I see it, I am drooling over these for one reason, the new POP ench speed spells DO NOT stack with monk epic effect, thats right, they nerfed our dmg taking ability, they nerfed solo XP, it was only a matter of time before they did something to **** our epic.. I'd wear these any day of the week. Using my epic for soloing is about all I'd slap it on for. In fact I know another monk friend of mine who is going for a pair of gaunts of dragon slaying.. and those arent even as nice as the epic, besides the AC, but he wants the 15/20 fist and hes got a bot chanter, who will soon be able to 68% speed him. **** 40%.. IF i had the points id be buying this pair out :P
8 posts
Urfaust, you're a ******** for trying to get 'technical' about who should get these guants. If you think a bard should get them simply because they give 15 CHA, think again. This item is great.. no, fantastic for any class that can use it. 40 ac on monk-usable gaunts? The ac sta and hps would make them very desireable to any tanking class, and anyone would love the extra saves. THESE ARE GREAT GAUNTLETS FOR ANYONE THAT CAN USE THEM!!!
Saying a bard should get them because they give CHA is like saying the Velious Dragon Talismans are better for one class than another.
Saying a bard should get them because they give CHA is like saying the Velious Dragon Talismans are better for one class than another.
#REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 17 2002 at 2:12 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) This item rocks for every class that can use it.. but if you wan't to really get technical think about it.. OK.. what stat do these have that only a couple classes can use.. HUMM.. Charisma... what usable classes can use the CHA? ok.. you can say any class that has a pet right? Exactly.. Now that leaves you with SHaman..Bard.. and Druid right? Now.. from those classes.. all of them can use the rest of the stats.. except for one. now think.. which of those three classes will use STR the most? How many druids will be quasi tanking? NONE.. how many Shammy's will be tanking? NONE... the druid will be casting the entire time.. heals. regen..DoT's.. whatever.. they will be medding.. now the Shammy.. what will the shammy be doing... Slowing.. backup healing..sending in the pet..buffing the groups.. then what... me playing a shammy as my main. I will be CANNIBALIZING...not tanking.. not sitting and medding.. I WILL BE Swapping hps for mana..
#REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 26 2003 at 7:29 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) thats the whorst post i have seen in a while
17 posts
Cleric got these gaunts on Veeshan (Teurde of Celestial Tomb)
#REDACTED,
Posted: Aug 12 2003 at 2:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) These are good for any class. I could MAYBE see them going to warrior or melee class first, but whatever.
Scholar
18 posts
These are very nice gauntlets, yes, however, I wouldn't replace my epic with 'em for any reason. It isn't about the 9/16 conversion, it's about the 40% item stackable haste and the added stats that come with the epic effect. Aside from the AC, they're a very small step above the Monk epic, and as for haste being for soloing only, I don't know about you but I'd much rather have, let's say Brother Xave's headband (providing the haste was fixed) and my epic. Why? I could be ginning at max haste full time as opposed to sponging off of the chanter to haste me. Begging haste is a waste of time, IMO. If I can be more self sufficient, that's the path I choose to take. If I could have all melee stats at 255 and be max hasted full time, I would be. Call it what you will, but from where I'm sitting, it's the sensible sollution. For an epic Monk to even want to swap out their epic for this is just assanine given the menial difference between the two. Celestial Tranquility adds another 12 AC and another 53 to ATK, at least for me. So yeah, I think I'll keep my bubble fists and if you really cherished your plate wearing tanks, you'd do the same.
/sigh I was about to post almost every single thing you just mentioned... oh well... It's funny how the monk's epics are still used in all the uber guilds yet the others suck compared to the new loot. Even though our epic seems the most rewarding, it's the easiest (in my opinion)
#REDACTED,
Posted: Mar 01 2002 at 11:31 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As always with uber *** gear, this post is full of peeps squabling about who should get it. Let me put your arguments to an end. BULVAR should get it! these would be a nice step up from my cobalts. So next time your super guild has these drop and you can't decide, remeber the golden rule... give to Bulvar ;)
3 posts
Just have to say Paladins are great tanks, They can out taunt most other classes with Their Taunt skill + a decent weap + stuns. They need the AC more than most other classes mentioned because like warriors they are main tank material. They can use the Wizdom. I dont know many pallies who hae been able to max out wizdom ..but it is very usefull to have for stunnage root parking backup healing and buffing. They can definitly benifit from + 100 mana + 15 Wiz and use everry other stat on this item to fulfill thier main purpose as a tank.
Anyone would love to have these, but it would just be a trophy on any others besides warrior or pally. It agree that some rangers would do well with this as well. Not because they are designed to be tanks. but because they can offset thier inherant weakness with this item to some extent. To give to a druid would be a pure waste and an excess. Bards could use the stats with the exception of the wiz and mana..and because it is such an uber stat for hands I would veto them for that reason. Shammy? get real it would take a lot more than the ac this has to protect a shammy from getting wasted, I would put them with Druids in this . Pure casters are OUT ..it would be a waste. Sk's? Kill them all !
Anyone would love to have these, but it would just be a trophy on any others besides warrior or pally. It agree that some rangers would do well with this as well. Not because they are designed to be tanks. but because they can offset thier inherant weakness with this item to some extent. To give to a druid would be a pure waste and an excess. Bards could use the stats with the exception of the wiz and mana..and because it is such an uber stat for hands I would veto them for that reason. Shammy? get real it would take a lot more than the ac this has to protect a shammy from getting wasted, I would put them with Druids in this . Pure casters are OUT ..it would be a waste. Sk's? Kill them all !
#REDACTED,
Posted: Aug 24 2002 at 7:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) wart get your head outta ye azz, then maybe you could think straight with all that **** outta your head. lol. pallys lol. i see more SK's being asked and tanking more than pallys everyday. shure pallys can stun, WhoooPie! ive never met another class that can pull aggro from a SK when the SK is doing his job properly. the stats on this item are balenced for almost everyclass capable of useing it. clear the **** out and grow a brain. who would use a pally as main tank when the pally can heal. lol try tanking and healing at the same time. pallys are there to assit the healer! and take aggro when and only if needed.
A trophy for anyone other than a warrior or paladin? What about SKs? They make great tanks as well, and can use the INT/mana just as much as the paladin can use the WIS/mana. Rangers can certainly use the WIS/mana, and the HP/AC/Saves as well. Bards can generate a ton of aggro, and can benefit from the HP/AC/Saves. Rogues, same. Priests can benefit from the AC (yes, they sometimes to get hit), HP, saves, WIS and mana. Basically, these would be a great item for any of the classes listed.
2 posts
Really, Warrt? NO ONE in the game needs resists, except for the almighty pally, right? I agree with Slein, what good are you and your horded uber loot, when all your healers, and evacers are dead? Every class has their own specialty, good morning sunshine. Shamans may be able to slow and some buffs. Druids can nuke, and handle the other end of the spectrum of buffs. They can also Evac you out when you get in trouble. Chanters will further save you by mezzing the add's you bring, and keeping your cleric well kept with Clarity. Cleric, 'nuff said. Mage, they have pets ppl would die for. Wizzies can nuke for more dmg then you have HP. All caster and priest classes are useful, it's not JUST tanks that are needed. Now here's the kicker, there isn't very many high resist and AC gear for these priest and caster classes, and what little we can use, tanks like you feel you should horde it all since you took the brunt of the dmg.. *NEWSFLASH* This just in!!! TANKS DO NOT LIVE WITH OUT THE HEALERS!! I REPEAT! A TANK IS USELESS WITH OUT PRIESTS/CASTERS!!
Wow.. go figure...
Wow.. go figure...
45 posts
I'm just perplexed at why people always say things like "TANKS DO NOT LIVE WITH OUT HEALERS" (without one word btw). That's all fine and dandy, but every class has a use or it would not have been created. My highest is my pally and I understand that pallies are not the most sought after class in many groups, they are not worthless though by any means. They should roll on melee items same as your beloved warrior tanks should. My other main is my chanter and I can honestly say that, despite that I like playing my pally many times, I think chanters are the most all around class that can be helpful in any group/raid. Should chanters get any priority on any pure caster items, regardless of whether the thing has a nice cha boost or whatever beyond other stats? No, they shouldn't. Just tired of reading these posts about one class should be merited an item because they are the most necessary or whatever it may be. It's a game, each class that an item is obviously geared towards deserves a chance... I look forward to reading you all bashing me on this, enjoy.
Spunkmidg 53 pally
Supmidg 52 chanter
Weemidg 38 wizzy
Live like the best, die like the rest.
Spunkmidg 53 pally
Supmidg 52 chanter
Weemidg 38 wizzy
Live like the best, die like the rest.
45 posts
OK.... most of you are really not on point.. you are all dogging Pally's? WHy...when I lead any raid my GROUP ONE... has me 55 Bard..a Warrior as MA...a Pally as SA....a cleric.. and two other Pally's... Pally's Layhands is NON agro.. and saves mana.. plus lets MA get hella good agro.. My MA goes in.. starts bashing.. smacking.. kicking.. taunting.. then first Pally LH's.. keeps doing what he has been until second to last pally lay hands.. then everyone rushes in.. by the time group two gets there.. the last pally lays hands then cleric takes over.. easy as that.. any other class that can? Exactly.. no.. so if you take my advice.. which you probably wont.. then you will have problems with your Group ONE cleric going OOM.. so trust me.. VS raids.. Trak..Gore..Vox..Naggy.. Talendor..Phinny.. you name it.. you need it.. it's a pally.. get group one outfitted with them and you will never fail at a raid again..
THanks
THanks
pally's are often considered better in pickup groups than warriors cuz they can paci pull and stun for MAD aggro and decrease the damage output of mobs... ppl can start casting on the mob when it's still at 100% and not worry about aggro, (with most pallies ive been with anyways) the only downside is they suck DPS wise compared to wars but that's made up by the rest of the group being able to go all out from the start of the pull... dont put all the pally's in one group on raids though, why not just have them target MA till their turn to LH is over... compared to other classes pally's prolly are one of the smallest DPS factors on raids... (excluding casters)
And it's this exact reason that Warriors need to be redone. Agro is a huge issue. Since warriors have such a hard time with agro(even with the new disciplines), everybody will take a pally or SK over a warrior. Where does this leave the warrior? Sitting for hours LFG and never getting anywhere because the only time people want them is in raids.
13 posts
Lol, Warrt! These are great gaunts for any of the useable classes. And if 40AC on a single item "isn't enough" for any class, I don't know what is.
These would be wonderful guants for a Shaman in the high-end game. Slowing is what we do, and being able to hack the slapdown you always get after being summoned due to slow-taunt is extremely important.
Shaman in the same class as Druids in this regard? Oh please. My Shaman is level 52, and he's tough as nails. He can tank Stonegrabbers in the Grey when they're slowed, I'm not aware of any Druid that could do that.
These would be wonderful guants for a Shaman in the high-end game. Slowing is what we do, and being able to hack the slapdown you always get after being summoned due to slow-taunt is extremely important.
Shaman in the same class as Druids in this regard? Oh please. My Shaman is level 52, and he's tough as nails. He can tank Stonegrabbers in the Grey when they're slowed, I'm not aware of any Druid that could do that.
Whats a pally gonna do with int? This item is good for all classes. Just for argumentative sake, you could say all the same for SKs, SKs tank more than pallys and get equal benefit from the stats. I am by no means saying this is eqclusively an SK item, just saying that your bias views are unfounded. This item, along with other similar ones are great for any class. Aside from having stats for everyone (yea hybreds can benefit from more stats than others, thats because they have attributes of 2 others... so what, everyone still benefits), resists are the godly all-powerful thing at the level needed to attain this. EVERYONE needs them... a large portion of mobs AoE for large damage and frequently. This means that people other than tanks take damage, unless they resist. What good is a pally when his cleric and chanter died from the AoE because he horded all the items with good resists?
#REDACTED,
Posted: Aug 29 2002 at 1:30 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You know why SKs tank more than paladins, ITS BECAUSE STUPID PEOPLE LIKE YOU POST THEN PEOPLE LOOK UP ITEMS AND AGREE WITH YOU!!!!! PALADINS AND SKs ARE >>>EQUAL<<< YEAH...GO FIGURE A KNIGHT AND A "SHADOW" KNIGHT HAVE THE OPOSSITE! Dont know where you get this crap about Sks being betetr and being able to tank better and keep agro better, but your wrong...Im not gonna say paladins better than SKs either, but i will say this. WE CAN BOTH OWN YOU WARRIORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ok never acually dueled a warrior but no problem.
Resists are very important, sure. But, as you state, at the level required to attain this, it's assumed you have a bard or three on hand to play AE resists so they're a little less of an issue. In the high-end game, HP is the "godly all-powerful thing."
43 posts
I really don't think SKs tank more then paladins, it's more of an equal thing while warriors tank more then both, that's just how it's been. While SKs are great at taking damage and sending out equal if not more damage, they do lack the ability to stun as often as a paladin. You are very correct on the matter of saves and resists though, all classes need as much saves as possible, especially in the zone you acquire these gauntlets in. The AC on this item though should mean that this is more of a Warrior/Paladin/Sk/Ranger item though since they are in "the front line". If a cleric has more ac then his tank, how does that help the group when the cleric has to heal constantly and become out of mana?
4 posts
Muhahaha got this sweet item yesterday, *sniff* it's so beautiful.
My advice get a **** load of friends together to do this and hope to god you have good dice that day!
-60 Gravelord Kandar The Render
My advice get a **** load of friends together to do this and hope to god you have good dice that day!
-60 Gravelord Kandar The Render
#REDACTED,
Posted: Jan 02 2002 at 4:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) people talk about who would be getting this item,, and what classes should get, any good guild would give this item to there main tank unless he had better, most uber guilds have one MAIN tank who has the best gear, so he can tank high lvl mobs, and is usually as officer/leader of the guild, so if he didn't have better they would probly go to the main tank,, cause as much as other classes get hit somtimes and the AC would help, when your a mian tank and you have to stand there and keep the agro , the exta AC boost helps you alot more,, so these would problty go to the guilds main tank
#REDACTED,
Posted: Dec 06 2001 at 6:39 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Rarely do I post my opinion lately but these scream beastlord :)
Quick question, I also have Magelo for tracking my Chars but how do you get that profile screen? I REALLY like it. You can e-mail me or just post back here, I'll check it, thanks. :) I also have a Dream Ranger, I think half the stuff is off this dragon right here.
Enfiniti Starr
Ranger of the 32 Season
Enfiniti Starr
Ranger of the 32 Season
34 posts
anyone that got these would wet themselves man) no matter what class they would rock.
2 posts
It's quite obvious the druid should get this.
<cackle>
<cackle>
#Anonymous,
Posted: Nov 03 2001 at 10:23 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) "If I were leading a raid against Vulak and these dropped, I would consider 3 classes - WAR, CLR, SHM"
Hate to bust your bubble but these went to a monk and yes they replaced his epic. It was on Veeshan to be exact. Monks who pull need ac and stats just like every other class.
#REDACTED,
Posted: Nov 12 2001 at 12:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) eh, the heck? monk needs ac eh? any class needs ac...i'd say give this to a hybrid as they would get the best use of the item, and an sk who pull needs all the stuff, but then again, its in the decision of the guild
#Anonymous,
Posted: Oct 17 2001 at 10:35 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i not sure what cls these would be best for(altho ithot wis casters but no they cna gtet 200 wis so easy nowdays) i think a ranger becaSUE U KNO WE GET SHAFTED ON EVERYTHING ELSE IN MELEE DEPARTMENT (excuse caps oops not gonna retype it either) so comeon lets look at our bets weapon prob lightning claws and tolans longsword look at pally best 1hs weapon dawncaller 22 24 my god 22 24 andthe effect adn look bah u guys cnat even duel wield it (no offens ei love grping with pallys alot they have saved my *** but comon we ranger need either triple attack or some better bstuff)
you wouldn't lotto this lol... one guild would decide how many drops go to the other guilds, but would get dibs. Then between those guilds, people usually bid participation points on items they want and the person who bids the most points gets to loot it. Thats just the way most people do it, I haven't been in a guild that did that personally; I kinda prefer small guilds.
45 posts
Just to give a little insight on Vulak, he summons all other dragons (main named) in the zone to aid him. To get Vulak down is an accomplishment to any guild on any server. It requires the near complete clearing of the entire zone that requires days of continious effort to complete. Loot off of this creature should go to people who deserve it not need it, because everyone "needs" this item. Congratulate anyone who is awarded items such as these for they have and are deserving and dedicated individuals.
#REDACTED,
Posted: Feb 03 2002 at 2:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol damn some people are way to dedicated to this game... all that spare time... sounds like the higher ups are all like 8 years old and have tons a spare time... no wonder alot of higher people act so childish (butcherr if you see this remind yourself of the kael raid) nuff said...
3 posts
No offense, but whenever youm see high ac, wis, and str on an idea everyone thinks of war, cleric, pal...well guess what..rangers need every stat besides int and cha, warriors just need ac str...I think rangers should be able to lotto for this too
No offense, but rangers can, sow and snare... meaning kiting ability. So AC isn't a factor. In big raids, Rangers are NOT tanks, they should NOT be taking hits, and if the tanks go down, or the clerics go down you can call the CR crew in, unless the nukers can kill the guy with one final round of nukes. Cause EVERYONE will be going down and going down FAST!!! Rangers need good weapons, not armor, they just are not meant to take the hits.
Scholar
41 posts
Unfortunately the dingus who posted about rangers getting an item like this has a pretty good message that will get largely ignored due to his colorful choice of Subject title.
The reason a ranger has an argument for an item like this is because it is far and away one of the better items they can ever get for any slot let alone the hand slot. In fact any chain class that can use this has precisely the same argument. There many plate class items that are superior in their own way to these gloves. Chain classes have a distinct lack of high AC items and these whizz on all but our 3 or 4 highest BPs, not to mention gloves. Warriors, and many other plate classes, have many ac/hp/resist options. Reaching the soft ac cap for a warrior who is hunting in ToV is a joke. Considerably more effort required ofr chain classes to reach that cap.
As for the tanking issue, well that depends on what you are doing with your own guild on your own server. Its wildly different for many people depending on how they do things.
I would personally never award these to a monk replacing an epic. Why? because they are not soemthing they monk would always use. They clearly would on occasion be swapping out depending on what they are doing. A ranger, or rogue, would super glue these to their hands and never for any reason take them off except for right after that "You have been slain by an Orc Pawn. LOADING PLEASE WAIT..." message. Of course in my guild, we are little, this would be a huge step up for anyone that could use it so it wouldn't be restricted away from anyone except druids...***** them (kidding). There isn't one person in my guild that this wouldn't be about a 20ac and mad stat gain for so it would be open season for points bidding.
The reason a ranger has an argument for an item like this is because it is far and away one of the better items they can ever get for any slot let alone the hand slot. In fact any chain class that can use this has precisely the same argument. There many plate class items that are superior in their own way to these gloves. Chain classes have a distinct lack of high AC items and these whizz on all but our 3 or 4 highest BPs, not to mention gloves. Warriors, and many other plate classes, have many ac/hp/resist options. Reaching the soft ac cap for a warrior who is hunting in ToV is a joke. Considerably more effort required ofr chain classes to reach that cap.
As for the tanking issue, well that depends on what you are doing with your own guild on your own server. Its wildly different for many people depending on how they do things.
I would personally never award these to a monk replacing an epic. Why? because they are not soemthing they monk would always use. They clearly would on occasion be swapping out depending on what they are doing. A ranger, or rogue, would super glue these to their hands and never for any reason take them off except for right after that "You have been slain by an Orc Pawn. LOADING PLEASE WAIT..." message. Of course in my guild, we are little, this would be a huge step up for anyone that could use it so it wouldn't be restricted away from anyone except druids...***** them (kidding). There isn't one person in my guild that this wouldn't be about a 20ac and mad stat gain for so it would be open season for points bidding.
If I were leading a raid against Vulak and these dropped, I would consider 3 classes - WAR, CLR, SHM. I'd most likely lean a bit in the direction of the shammy, depending on what kind of slowing power was in my guild. Sure, the stats are great for a tank, but 100 extra hp and 100 extra mana (not to mention everything else) on your shaman could save your raiding party from a CR. Its a tragedy if you only have 1 shaman on a raid and he dies - especially if he hasn't landed a slow on whatever it is you're fighting - especially if you get adds.
It depends on what needs you have in your guild. But if you're ever making the decision about who these should belong to, I might *firmly* recommend your main shaman. Load that guy up with as much STA, AC and hp as you can. The mana and WIS doesn't hurt either, especially considering the difficulty that shammies have in maxxing out their WIS. Besides, most melee at this level have the hard cap on STR anyway (I think hard cap is 250 for STR). Never played a shammy, but I've been on raids that fell apart as soon as the shammy died.
It depends on what needs you have in your guild. But if you're ever making the decision about who these should belong to, I might *firmly* recommend your main shaman. Load that guy up with as much STA, AC and hp as you can. The mana and WIS doesn't hurt either, especially considering the difficulty that shammies have in maxxing out their WIS. Besides, most melee at this level have the hard cap on STR anyway (I think hard cap is 250 for STR). Never played a shammy, but I've been on raids that fell apart as soon as the shammy died.
12 posts
255 is the cap on shammy str.
I'd kill for this simply cause of the AC, HP, and Mana...the wis boost is a plus... hard problem shamans have is AC and HPs... more Hps = more to canni... Its actually easy to Max out your wisdom as a shaman...i have. But life is easier with stats like this so one can switch items out for Resists.
Yes dont Neglect your Shammy... im confidant i wouldnt get a shot at this period but one can dream=)
Gillianna
60 Barbarian Shaman
Guild Leader
Scars Of Veeshan
Zeb' Server
I'd kill for this simply cause of the AC, HP, and Mana...the wis boost is a plus... hard problem shamans have is AC and HPs... more Hps = more to canni... Its actually easy to Max out your wisdom as a shaman...i have. But life is easier with stats like this so one can switch items out for Resists.
Yes dont Neglect your Shammy... im confidant i wouldnt get a shot at this period but one can dream=)
Gillianna
60 Barbarian Shaman
Guild Leader
Scars Of Veeshan
Zeb' Server
#Anonymous,
Posted: Sep 18 2001 at 6:36 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) IF IT WOULDNT AUTOMATICALLY BE ASSINGED TO THE WARRIOR I WOULD LEAVE THAT GUILD
Am I the only one who is tired of reading the same posts for every decent item that ever comes up on these pages? I don't want to sound rude, but everyone already knows that the item is great & that we would all like to roll on it but in Reality the Guild decides who gets it...blah, blah, blah...
Please - could someone post some info that is worth reading? Maybe something about the mob that drops it, the combat, the camp - you know...something that actually helps the reader in some way?
Maybe it's just me?
Please - could someone post some info that is worth reading? Maybe something about the mob that drops it, the combat, the camp - you know...something that actually helps the reader in some way?
Maybe it's just me?
Message has high abuse count and will not be displayed.
#REDACTED,
Posted: Sep 17 2001 at 4:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, some things are still rolled fro, but not these. Imho, anyone who can equip these should have a shot at 'em.
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