I retired my cleric due to slow group xp. It was getting frustrating. So at first when I saw this I was really happy. Dust off my cleric and put my chanter in the closet.

But then I realized clerics will get hurt even more. Why? Because now we will be fighting all the high level druids with their near CH for group spots. Ah well....someday

Alerias Cleric of 53 moons

Oh, for the love of GOD. Again with the apparant attitude that the position of people who are against this change stems from a worry that they'll not get as much exp as they used to.

Okay, one more time. I'll type slow so you'll be sure to understand.

The reason this change is bad is NOT because players who solo will not exp as fast. The reason this change is bad is because heaping yet ANOTHER reward on a specific style of play only serves to push the game one step closer to total imbalance.

And when it comes right down to it, I don't think that this change will actually affect the way people group. If a group of 5 is handling their pulls with no problems, why add another player, even if it doesn't impact the exp they're getting? Because the existing group is doing fine as they are, another player is just one more body to buff and keep alive. Another player is just one more person who might make a mistake that wipes the group. Don't misunderstand me here, I'm not saying that having a full group (or any group, for that matter) is a negative thing. But if the existing group is handling the situation with no problems, then there are no benefits to adding another player. Because there are no benefits, the only thing that can be looked at to evaluate the sense of adding the new player are the negatives, however theoretical they may be.

Further, this "not a penalty to add the one more player" concept applies ONLY to 5 player groups. 4 player groups will still lose exp by adding players. In fact, they'll now lose MORE exp than they used to, so they'll be less likely to want to go to 5 if 4 is enough. If their REAL objective were to encourage groups to take the 6th player rather than making do with 5, they'd just change the division rules.

And although I can't speak for anyone else, I personally don't feel the need to **** and moan constantly. But when I see something with which I strongly disagree, I say something about it.

-aye

I'd only say, "what do you want from me now?", if every time I got a kiss, it was because the kisser wanted something.

It's difficult to be excited about getting more experience because in this case, not only is it unearned, I believe that it's also going to cause problems for the game down the line.

As for looking on every change excited that it might make the game more fun, that's fine...but you'll be disappointed less often if you think through the ramifications of the changes prior to hoping that they'll help, because some don't, and never will.

-aye

And we're not claiming that soloers are getting nerfed. For myself, I'm saying that groups are getting a benefit that's in excess of what they should. Grouping is already encouraged...it doesn't need more help.

-aye

you didnt read the patch message correctly.

It says "Accordingly, the bonus inherent to Planes of Power zones will be decreased slightly."

Thus the Druid who does a lot of solo charming in the planes will see less than the 100% they did before per kill, lets call it 95% because we are not sure. Sure adding another gives me 60%,another 43.3%, another 35% and so on, which is an increase from before per size group. But we have still lost 5% +/- exp per kill if we solo in the planes.

If you always group, this is a bonus, if you solo, this is a nerf. check the math.

Edited, Thu May 29 15:13:23 2003

Actually, it's your argument that's flawed. You're NOT penalized for joining a group. You get less exp, but you do less work, and your risk is lower. It's a wash. Why do so many of you seem to have trouble with this concept? Benefits can NOT always be quantified.

And, before anyone starts to complain that I'm "one of those antisocial soloing g00bs", and that I'm just speaking out against a style of gameplay that I don't endorse, let me say it again: I'M NOT AGAINST GROUPING.

Grouping is good, and should be (and already is to a sufficient degree) encouraged. Players need to learn to fight in a group if they want to be involved with ANY end game content. But players who group should NOT receive even more bonus exp just because they're grouped.

If you want a real-world metaphor for this, imagine that Bob, Ted, and Jim are restoring a car. Bob rebuilds the engine, Ted rebuiilds the tranny, and Jim does the bodywork. They all collaborate on the interior. They all gain experience in restoring cars, but they do NOT all gain the experience necessary to restore a car on their own.

Presumably, the theory behind the granting of exp for killing a MOB is that the number of times one has to swing their weapon and/or cast their spells leads the toon to some amount of understanding as to things like, "Ah...sand giants are more vulnerable in the armpit than anywhere else", or, "Hmm...when casting a spell, if I plant my feet more than 18 inches apart, it's not as easy for the mob to bash me out of position and interrupt me". When you're grouping, you don't take as many swings or cast as many spells, so you don't learn as much.

Now, I'm not against having SOME sort of exp bonus (the one that's in place now is fine), because that emulates the concept of toons exchanging observations relating to the battle amongst one another...but having someone else TELL you that, on a sand giant, you really want to go for the armpit is a far cry from learning it by doing.

-aye

Except that they're not slowing it down, they're speeding it up: At the high end, it's almost a necessity to be in a group. My suspicion on this is that they're just trying to cut down on the noise from people who're complaining that too few players have the phat lewt that comes either directly or indirectly from the upper tier planes, or that they're incensed because they paid for all of PoP but they only get to see 6 of the zones because they haven't been flagged yet.

-aye

First off your very worng. When 50 was the max lvl, pepole that hit 50 did not quite. There where Items to get, Dragons to kill, and your freinds to hang out with and help. When they let us go to 60, pepole hit 60, and did not quite. There where more quest, and more places to explore, more dragons to kill, and as always your firends where still in game. Then they came out with AA points. Pepole got the ones they wanted, and still played teh game. Same as above. They let us get to 65 and added 2 new pages of AA's. Yet we will still play. WHY? It's not to hit lvl 65, it's to Kill them dragons/High end mobs/Gods. It's to get, or help get your freind some new armor. It's to hang out with your freinds. So no there not going to loss players that have hit 65 and 300 aa's. Cuase thats not what really matters to most players, thats not there full goal from this game.

Aadwen Cracked, Mixed Nuts, CT, Lvl 65 Chanter

P.S. I'm still playing

Don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that getting exp is a negative thing. I'm saying that getting more exp for doing the same amount of work is a negative thing. In a group, the player does a fraction of the overall work, so the toon therefore doesn't learn as much about everything that was required to accomplish the objective.

This game is spinning more and more out of control every day because of shortsighted decisions made by the designers. And don't get me wrong...I'm not saying that every decision they make is a wrong one. But it would be insane for ANYONE to claim that every decision that the designers make is a correct one.

A good example of this can be seen in the deflation of prices that's rampant on EQ servers these days. Hero bracers, for example (AC9, STR10) once sold for 1K plat. Now, they're just given away. This has happened because the various "balancing changes" and "adequately scalred risk-to-reward ratio for encounters" has reaulted in players that are too powerful, who are able to get equipment that's too good too easily. In addition, the final end game encounters have become so outrageously imbalanced that maybe 2 percent of all players will ever experience them, and of course, the rewards that come from those encounters are so powerful that they effectively render the toons who receive them invulnerable.

The developers will counter by saying that it was necessary to scale up the difficulty of the encounters so as to provide an adequate challenge to the players who were engaged in them. And they'll continue on to say that the increased difficulty necessitated the increased rewards, lest the upper-end players become board with the game.

In fact, however, what this is really saying is, "As designers, we're lazy. We don't know what things make players happy, and we're not willing to put forth the effort to find out." They create artificial challenges by making battles that teams of level 65 ultra-twinks (and yes, you may object to the term, but face it- when you're 65 and have all of your useful AA abilities maxed, there's nothing left to do but pile better equipment on your toon) take forever to complete. Instead, why not have the rewards be things like new titles for your character? Who wouldn't want to be the one walking around with the name, "Bob, Slayer of Rallos Zek"? How about weapons and armor that are no better than the pieces that were necessary to take down the mob, but which have new and unique graphics, perhaps even graphics that can be customized to a degree (and no, I'm not talking about tinting) by the player? How about more epic quests that, when completed, allow a player access to a zone? And I'm not talking about crap like VT keys...I'm talking about an involved quest that involves having good faction with at least 3 relatively disparate groups (I'm not talking about needing to be ally with Dreadguard Inner and Temple of Life, more like having to be at least Warmly to both Steel Warriors and Freeport Militia), making kills all over the world and crafting items with the resultant drops. Now THAT is a challenge. Right now, I only know of three quests that come close to this: The Coldain prayer shawl series, the Aid Gimli series, and the Coldain ring series. Certainly, the game needs to have combat encounters that are interesting and challenging, but this is NOT an action game and never has been. The designers need to take a hard look at what they're doing to challenge the players, because the approach they're using now is becoming really stale and hackneyed, and if it persists, it will be the downfall of the game.

-aye

Perhaps...and it might not even be a bad idea to increase the bonus (though not quite to the degree that SoE is currently planning), just for 2- or 3-player groups, as long as they keep the amount of downtime between kills below a certain number. This would show that not only are they working well together as a group, but are also able to manage their personal resources (mana, HP, whatever) efficiently. For groups of larger than 3, however, it becomes far to easy to just have a continuous chain of pulls going- Monk runs out, grabs MOB, pulls him in. While tank melees MOB, monk gets another, which chanter mezzes, and the monk assists the tank. Meanwhile, cleric/shaman/druid is standing occasionally to heal the melees. When the first MOB is dead, tank starts to melee the MOB that the chanter mezzed, and the monk sets out again.

-aye

hmmmmm.....Sounds to me like ironic is a bitter person that is probably about 11 yrs old and takes everything as a personal insult because ,after all, anything that doesn't serve to make him more uber then every other player is just ment to ***** him over. Lets hope that SOE in all their wisdom continue too single out ironic for nerfings until he finaly has enough and stops paying them to play their game.


Edited, Wed May 28 23:35:55 2003

All of your "proof" is anectodal and from a negative opinion of SoE to begin with.

- Below level 10 respawn w/equip change: As a player who didn't know much when I started, had nobody to twink me, I wish I had this two years ago when I started. I fell in water in SFG that had pirahnas in it and could not get out. It took frustrating HOURS and repeatedly looting my corpse as I died to keep my body from rotting with the gear I had been gifted by kind players. Almost quit over that - that my new character could die in a "newbie" zone that way.. Just like newbie Rangers seem to always have to be told to keep their fletching and archery up, all newbies need to just be told to learn how to find their corpse!

- Spell book change: So in real life if you're sitting in the middle of a field with your spell book on your lap, you wouldn't be watching out of the corner of your eye for a dangerous mob? What is real life about being BLIND, the only sense that can help you in EQ to watch for enemies, while you rest your mind (not thinking about walking, running, spell casting, etc.).? And it would be a piece of cake for them to code so that when you hit your spellbook button, everything else went dark, so it has no sinister motives of "the new UI." It just makes sense that you would not lose give up all ability to watch for danger so that you could rest your mind. RL meditation is all about being MORE aware of your environment, getting in touch with things you normally screen out of your inputs.

- PoP porting: OMG, the porting is there because the world HAS GOTTEN HUGE. Without a Druid or Wizard, going back to my home city from say,Scarlet Desert, would take HOURS, even with the spires (home city is Qeynos). Also, if this had been available when I started, I would be a much happier WE Ranger instead of Human. I prefer the hunting ground, etc. but as it was I was level 17 before I made my first hours long run to G Faydark. I still need Druids and Wizards - to get to places like CS, WL, SFG, etc.

- LoY Maps to all: It was one of the stupidest parts of the game that they didn't have built in mapping sooner! Every other game I've played like this did! You run around Greater Faydark for four levels and your toon doesn't record where he/she finds things? Some explorer! The first thing I do in a new place in RL is get a map! That somebody else has made! It's not to "suck people in", it's to put in a feature that should have been there in the beginning, but their UI probably couldn't support it at first. XML makes it possible.

I love grouping - the chain pulling, the cleric healing, the mobs falling fast. But the experience was too low. I'm glad they are going to raise it and encourage big groups. If I get the experience of killing a yellow mob, I should have the penalty lowered for having help. Bravo SoE, put this in, let's rock!

Okay, a couple of things. First, for players other than Druids and Wizards, soloing doesn't bring in exp as quickly overall as grouping. Second, soloing is neither easy nor safe. Third, who says that players that solo don't learn valuable skills? As a solo player, I've had to get pretty good at dealing with adds, because when I'm fighting alone, there's nobody there to mez or nuke the add, or keep me alive until I can turn my attention to it. I've also had to learn to single-pull. And to manage my mana. These skills are useful in a group situation.

The point here is not whether grouping should be encouraged. I believe that it should be. This change does not merely encourage grouping...for all intents and purposes, it forces grouping. In addition, it allows underexperienced players to get themselves into situations that create needless hazard not only to themselves but to others as well, and when a change creates collateral damage like I believe this one will, it can't be called a good thing.

-aye

There are many more soloing techniques than straight DD kiting, and that would only solve that particular one. Many soloing techniques do not rely so heavily on running away. Plus there's no accellerate time unless you're on a horse, so all it would be is one more button to hit every once in a while. And a big annoyance for other travel overall.