Venril Sathir  

Raid Encounter

Uploaded July 24th, 2007

In the Tower of Frozen Shadow: Part of the fifth encounter within the Tower of Frozen Shadow anniversary raid (see this quest entry for raid information).

In Karnor's Castle:

The Main items in his loot table are the Leggings for the various Kunark Class specific armor, as well as a line of two handed blunt staves for casters.

  • Mesmerizable: No

Background: Venril Sathir was the leader of the Iksar Empire who united the five tribes and brought them together to conquer most of the continent of Kunark.

Their rising power eventually attracted the attention of the Lords of the Ring of Scale (read: the Dragons of Veeshan's Peak). It was the mighty Trakanon who took it upon himself to wreak war apon the Iksar Empire, casting down this Necromancer leader.

Venril Sathir managed to cheat death somehow and now focuses on regaining the Iksar throne from his stronghold in Karnor's Castle.

Categories: Templatized | EverQuest
This page last modified 2021-09-11 17:53:35.

Level: 55
Expansion: Ruins of Kunark
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dropped nothing...
# Oct 05 2020 at 8:06 AM Rating: Good
2,881 posts
Waiting on VSR to help friend with druid epic and VS spawned. Killed him and he dropped NOTHING.

Does that happen? Weird...
Sippin 115 DRU **** Firiona Vie
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
My crew: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
buffed on tlp?
# May 30 2020 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
30 posts
engaged him on mangler open world 05/30/2020, hit me for a max of 705, deadly lifetap for 1875, and mitigation of the mighty, not sure about hp just wanted to see how tough he was.

update: engaged the triggered version *Venril Sathir a few days later. a 65 mage was able to basically solo him with one or two heals from a 65 druid. wasn't really able to land spells but went down very quickly. dropped 2 pulsing green stones and blackened iksar bones

Edited, Jun 9th 2020 6:38pm by Hithiquen
# Nov 15 2019 at 3:02 PM Rating: Excellent
154 posts
Venril Sathir swings at you.
You riposte. You bash Venril Sathir for 24887 damage. (reposte slay undead)
# Oct 26 2018 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
5 posts
Respawn Time
# Mar 12 2018 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
281 posts
Recent spawn times (on Bertox):

08 Mar 18 @ 09:33am
10 Mar 18 @ 01:40pm (~52 hours later)
12 Mar 18 @ 02:40pm (49 hours later)

I'm not sure if the "3 day" re-spawn timer listed on various forum posts and websites was changed, or if there is a large spawn "window", but it looks like its much closer to 2 days now.
Respawn Time
# Mar 17 2018 at 8:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Sigpaos wrote:
Recent spawn times (on Bertox):

08 Mar 18 @ 09:33am
10 Mar 18 @ 01:40pm (~52 hours later)
12 Mar 18 @ 02:40pm (49 hours later)

I'm not sure if the "3 day" re-spawn timer listed on various forum posts and websites was changed, or if there is a large spawn "window", but it looks like its much closer to 2 days now.

I believe the old world spawns are now on a 24 to 72 hour random spawn timer. At least this is true for progression servers, I'm not sure about live servers.
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conquer achievement note
# Sep 30 2017 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
102 posts
If you are trying to get the Conqueror of Karnor's Castle Achievement, the VSR triggered version of Venril Sathir does NOT count towards this.
Buffed up on Progression severs
# Jul 05 2015 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
105 posts
They have recently buffed the old school "raid" mobs on the progression servers. I gave him a go on Vulak. Highest melee hit I saw before getting splatted was 1500. Not quite the pushover he once was on the progression servers.
Spawned versus "real" VS
# Mar 04 2015 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
35,550 posts
Figured I'd make a post about this, because there seems to be a *ton* of confusion and conflicting reports. First off, for those who are still confused (despite massive information about this if you read), there are two versions of VS.

1. The "real" VS. He's on an approximately 3 day respawn timer. He can randomly drop any of the stuff on the list above.

2. The "triggered" VS. Follow the instructions in the VSR entry to spawn. Basically, VSR is up (that's "Venril Sathir's Remains"). He's a skeleton and unlike VS spawns about every 12 hours (maybe 24? Not sure). Hand him a summoned globe of the fireflies (or whatever it's called exactly). He will despawn and be replaced by the Spirit of Venril Sathir (SVS). He's a ghost. Hand him a scroll of spell:resurrection (buy off a cleric vendor in PoK) and he will despawn and be replaced by the "triggered" form of Venril Sathir. This version is used for the druid and ranger epics *only*.

Here's the confusion. I've had people insist up down and sideways that the triggered version has a full loot table. Every one who says this insists that hey have a friend who got <X item> from the triggered version. They'll talk about how they knew a guy who knew a guy who camped his druid there so he could summon the globe (it's no-drop and temporary btw), and spawn VS so he could get some other epic bits or sellable drops. They are all either lying, or were lied to (or told the wrong information by someone repeating someone else's wrong information.

I have personally witnessed several people using VSR to spawn VS. In every single case the following items and only the following items dropped:

Blacked Iksar Bones (1)
Pulsating Green Stone (2)

That's it. Every time. Two stones used for the ranger and/or druid epics and the bones used for the Shaman 7th cudgel quest (no clue why this one is there, but it is). What's strange is that I have had people insist that they personally saw the triggered version drop other items. I can only assume they didn't know the difference, or assumed that the VS they saw was triggered when it wasn't, or some other ridiculous thing. The fact is that the triggered version does not drop any epic pieces other than for the druid/ranger epics. If that was not true, then VSR would not sit up for hours at a time, whilst VS is killed about as soon as he spawns. If you could actually get sellable stuff from spawning VS from VSR, the campers would do it because VSR spawns 3-6 times for every VS spawn.

Why SOE gave rangers and druids a cheap/easy way to complete their epics, but not wizards is beyond me, btw. I literally see VSR sitting up unmolested about every other time I run to check to see if VS is up. He's there for hours at a time because the demand for druid/ranger epics just isn't great enough to justify camping him. It's annoying as all hell btw.

Rant aside, just wanted to make it really really clear that the two versions are completely different and drop completely different stuff.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Spawned versus "real" VS
# Sep 08 2018 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
340 posts
No, he can drop other Quest items, but they are not guaranteed. I have seen and helped people trigger him, kill the triggered version, and personally saw the drops on the corpse with my own eyes. It is not regular, but it does in fact happen. Non-quest drops, however, I have not seen.

Edited, Sep 8th 2018 7:47pm by laink
Venril Sathir
# Oct 19 2014 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
4,580 posts
In Karnor's /loc is around -89, -775, 9

This is the extreme eastern room, lower level of the south side of the zone. If you read deeper down the thread Sippin and Gbaji give good directions (two different ways) to get down to this room. He was spawned against the back wall of the room.

As far as I can tell it's a 1 way in no way out area --except maybe for rogues/lockpickers who maybe can open the door that is locked in the courtyardish room (room with balconies may be a better description?) before Venril's room.

I found it odd that there were no faction hits for killing him... considering the Overthere Outpost is on Venril Sathir faction.

He dropped:

Gnarled Staff, Deepwater Greaves, Blackened Iksar Bones, Nightshade Scented Staff

My suggestion for those trying to get him on a perma-farmed server is simply dedicate the character that needs the drop to the room. Login when you only have 5 minutes (as long as you are high enough level this is an easy encounter) and see if he is up. Meanwhile use the week(s) this is going to take to do stuff on other characters. I got him at about 6am pacific time which probably helped me avoid a crowd on about my 7th login attempt to catch him.

Edit: I looked over the combat scroll again... if he once upon a time gave faction hits he does not now.

Edited, Oct 19th 2014 9:33am by snailish
Venril Sathir
# Mar 04 2015 at 4:58 PM Rating: Decent
35,550 posts
Oh. I just used a stone of marking to set a secondary bind point in DL right outside the zoneline into KC. Takes me less than a minute to run to the room to check if he's up. For me, it's not about camping there and whatnot, but that I maybe only log onto EQ 2-3 times a week. I check when I first log in. I check in between doing dailies and LoD burns. I check prior to logging out. But unless VS happens to pop during the few hours I'm on, I'm not going to see him up.

The additional problem seems to be timezone related. Since I live in the same timezone that the servers are in, downtimes tend to happen during my work hours. Which means that the initial spawn occurs when they bring the servers up (when I'm at work). That means that respawn will tend to happen 3 days (plus or minus a couple random hours) later, which will usually also be during my work hours. Servers are reset often enough relative to the rate of respawn that the odds of the spawn time shifting around the clock enough to happen when I'm at home and playing before the next server reset is fairly low. And I would have to just happen to be playing on that evening as well (I literally have commitments going on 4 nights a week every week).

It's become a ridiculous thing, but I refuse to MQ and thus reward the very people who are ******** me over. There is actually zero reason why VS should not be up whenever someone needs him except that people intentionally kill him in order to drive up demand for MQs. There are just not enough folks doing epics on a given server to need more than one drop every three days (or every month probably). It's completely artificially done and is also annoying. If you are one of those who kills this mob to sell MQs, please do us all a favor and DIAF.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Gnarled Staff - Wiz Epic
# Sep 24 2014 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
Assuming the Gnarled Staff is MQ'able I would be highly interested for my wiz!

Server: AB
Char Name: Wynnter
Guild: Perilous

Contact me in game or here to work something out please. (Last piece for me, hooray!)
Gnarled Staff - Wiz Epic
# Sep 24 2014 at 12:26 PM Rating: Good
woot! got it today of VS...

VS killed @ 14:25 (EST) on Sept 24 for any lookin to camp him
VS and VSR
# Jul 08 2014 at 5:09 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
I have no idea his spawn time due to the fact that other's have come in and killed him while i wasnt online. ended up asking a GM to find this out. *sigh*

just killed VS at 230pm est.

now to wait for VSR

Edited, Jul 10th 2014 2:36pm by godesschaos
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How to find
# May 18 2014 at 6:18 AM Rating: Good
2,881 posts
Redoing the druid epic on an alt after many years for fun and I had forgotten how to get to Venril Sathir's room. Lots of info here but of confusing variety. I have always loved EQ's old dungeons but I'm not a natural at finding my way in these corridors and mazes and unless I've "lived" in a particular dungeon for weeks I get lost unless I make maps and notes. So...

No key required, no passing thru secret walls, no going into the basement. Just enter the castle, turn left, go up the stairs and continue bearing toward the back of the castle along its left side, as you look at the EQAtlas map. Eventually you get to the "box room" (#12, yeah, a small roundish room with a box in the middle of it.) Then just continue down the corridors till you get to #13 on the same map. Venril's remains and Venril spawn there.

Edited, May 18th 2014 8:20am by Sippin
Sippin 115 DRU **** Firiona Vie
Master Artisan (300+) * Baker * Brewer * Fletcher * Jeweler * Potter * Researcher * Smith * Tailor
My crew: 115 WAR ENC CLE MAG WIZ SHD SHM Master Alchemist ROG Master Tinkerer & Poison-Maker
How to find
# Oct 08 2014 at 7:57 PM Rating: Good
35,550 posts
Since I've been running in here trying to pick up that last piece of my wiz epic, here's another route, including descriptions (so you don't need a map to find it). I find it to be the easiest and quickest route, but YMMV.

First thing. Run straight across the drawbridge and into the castle. You'll see an opening on your left. Go through the opening and into the room inside.

In that room, find the only exit door on the ground floor (no need to go up stairs here). That door exits into a courtyard. Looking out the door into the courtyard, diagonally to the right is another door. Run across the courtyard to that door and open it. You'll find yourself in a small room with a staircase that spirals up in a clockwise direction. This is usually where I stop and blast anything that has agroed on me, since mobs will sometimes take "odd" routes to follow you up stairs. This, btw, is also why I go up to the balcony here rather than in the first room (which has a number of mobs in it, plus those that might agro from the castle entryway).

Go all the way to the top of the stairs (there's a landing one revolution up, but don't stop there). At the top, there's an opening to a balcony that overlooks the courtyard you ran through earlier (and runs along the whole left side of the castle. Facing out from the stairs, make a left (can only go left or right, or I suppose jump off the balcony). It nearly immediately hits a wall, with the balcony continuing to the right (which will lead to the stairs that were in the first room mentioned earlier), and an entryway to the left. Go left. Inside is a hallway that runs straight, then down a slight ramp, and to a door. Just go straight. No turns. Ignore any doors and whatnot along the way. Just go straight down the hall until you bump into a door, then open that door.

On the other side of the door is a hallway that runs to the left and right. Go left. A short distance down this hallway is an opening to the room where VS spawns. You'll enter at the top tier balcony in the bottom left corner of the room. VS will spawn at the opposite end of the room, centered along the "top" wall.

I've found that while this may not be the absolute most direct route (although it's pretty close), it's the easiest to follow. With the exception of the dash across the courtyard (where there are multiple doors, and the correct choice is the one to the right), it's either "go through the only door in the room", or "go straight until you hit a wall or balcony edge, then turn left".
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
How to find
# Jun 04 2019 at 3:44 AM Rating: Decent

Huge thanks..... awesome guide!!
# Sep 22 2012 at 6:57 AM Rating: Decent
1,039 posts
22,701 was lowest hp i had to do to kill him over the past month. got him 4 times so far. I have more to do to complete my calculations on spawn time. I will revisit this post when I have more data. So far it seems to me that VS is on the normal 3 days + 1-12 hours spawn timer that most other big names are on. Why so much confusion over spawn timer is because of VSR and too little data to construct a good timeline. VSR can spawn a few hours after VS dies. and then he hangs around until VS pops. I have not seen it, but it is my opinion that VS kills VSR when VSR wanders into the back room. Kiling VSR only starts the timer on VSR respawn. has nothing to do with VS himself. that so far is just my feeling - I dont have enough data to prove it. There was one time I was told someone killed VS so I ran there and sure enough corpse was there with a gnarled staff on it and then I got him myself only 2 days 16 hours ( thats 64 hours) later, Could it be 3 d +/- (1-12)? thats 60 - 84. So we need more data still.

Edit : I saw VSR up on 9/ 19 at 11 am. I left to go huinting ( this was righgt after patch). I came back at 1 pm and vsr was gone and venril didnt spawn for me the rest of the day. I assumed someone got him. Found VSR up again on 9/21 at 6 pm, and there he was still at 6 am the next morning. I went hunting. I returned at 730 am and VS was up. Naturally vsr wasnt and I kileld VS. Found VSR again the next morning at 7:15 am and left. knowing vs would not psanw that day. but by evening I camped there to check the next morning. Next morning VSR was still up at 630 am and stayed up till at least 845 am. I had to go out so didnt see anything until 11:30 am when I found no vsr and yes VS.

Current Conclusions : VS kills VSR when VS spawns and VSR wanders into his room. VSR spawns anywhere from 4 - 24 hours after VS dies. VSR stays up until killed by a player or when VS spawns. VSR and VS are on independant timers. VS spawn timer is ... still confusing, but the quickest I saw was 52 hours. I have also witnessed 64 hours. Keep the data coming.

Edited, Sep 24th 2012 11:44am by Shuraz
# Nov 25 2012 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
1,039 posts
51-1/2 hours this cycle

edit : 50-1/2 horus this time. someone came in and killed VSR 1 hour before vs popped. I am still hoping to see vs kill vsr.

Edited, Feb 7th 2013 10:25am by Shuraz
# Nov 25 2012 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
1,039 posts
51-1/2 hour spawn this particular day
# Mar 23 2012 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
VSR was up at 9am game time. Handed in the globe & SVS poped. Gave him the spell & VS poped directly. Killed him very easely with tank merc & myself (ranger 65). I got 2 stones & some bones. :-)
Spawn times
# Jul 29 2011 at 8:28 AM Rating: Decent
I camped for Gnarled staff past 2 weeks. It took time because there were 2 other people camping for VS as well. Not to mention couple of druid/ranger camping for VSR. I don't have anything new to add other than what some of others had mentioned below.
1. VSR spawned after the server reboot. I know VS had spawned after previous server reboot.
2. VSR spanwed about 6 +-1 hours after VSR. It had happened only once. It could have been more often but there were some people checking out Karnor frequently and may have gotten VSR or VS.
3. VS spawned 12 +-1 hours after VSR was killed.
4. VS dropped Gnarled staff on my 2nd kill.

Assumption: VSR and VS share spawn cycle. And VS/VSR can spawn after every 6+-1 hours after VSR/VS death. VS spawn seems to be rare.
How do you ?????
# Jun 06 2010 at 3:23 AM Rating: Decent
21 posts
Ok so I come to a locked door how do I get the key for this to get in his room Please help I really want to finish my epic it is long over do.

First Floor Kill
# Jan 25 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
24 posts
Not having hunted in Karnor's ... ever ... I had no idea where I would find this mob. While the directions here were helpful, the castle itself was confusing.

Venril is on the first floor (no need for a rogue to come with) towards the back of the castle, southeast (ish) corner. There's a rectangular room there, with multiple levels open.

As others have stated, be sure you have the spell Resurection with you, and have Dance of the Fireflies (level 1 Druid spell) loaded in your spell book (it can only be cast 7pm to 7am).

I am currently lvl 64 and took him down in less than five minutes with a tank merc.

Also, I have no idea about the spawn timer on this mob. I went to the castle Saturday afternoon, no Venril. I came back Sunday morning, and Venril was there. Moreover, he dropped 2 Pulsating Green stones.


The Nameless Server
Guild: Chaotic Appocalypse
First Floor Kill
# Sep 08 2014 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
Quick note on your post. The version you killed was the resurrected VS, from a Druid or Ranger handing in the Globe and spell Resurrection. He will always drop 2 Pulsating Green Stones, and maybe Blackened Iksar Bones, but nothing else, as he is specifically for the Ranger/Druid epic 1.0. The regular version of VS is the only one that drops the regular loot table. I won't go into how to spawn the resurrected as it is discussed in detail by others.
All that is lost, is not Forsaken
Timer and needs
# Jan 07 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
38 posts
Killed at 10am CST Povar 1-07-10. Didn't drop Wiz stick. Big help was making him what I needed with this info

1) FIRST THING you need to bring is an unscribed cleric lvl 47 spell: resurrection. you will need to hand it in to NPC "Spirit of Venril Sathir".
2) NEXT THING you need to do is summon a globe (I did the lvl 1 firefly globe) This can only be cast at night (7PM - 7AM) so be prepaired
3) From zone you can see "Venril Sathir Remains" on track when he is up and is non agro. DO NOT KILL HIM!!!! Turn in the summoned globe to him. "Venril Sathir Remains" will vanish and "Spirit of Venril Sathir" appears DO NOT KILL!!!!
4) GET READY TO FIGHT!!!!!!!!! Once this next step is completed "Venril Sathir" will spawn fighting. Give "Spirit of Venril Sathir" the scroll - "spell: resurrection". "Spirit of Venril Sathir" will vanish and "Venril Sathir (spawned) will appear and start fighting. (He conned yellow to my 53 Druid) We had no adds.

The spell is avail in POK, and I farmed a few Split Paws

Happy Hunting

Edited, Jan 8th 2010 11:09am by Reloader
Timer and needs
# Feb 01 2012 at 11:11 AM Rating: Decent
This information is corrected, but for the spawned version.

There really should be 2 entries for this guy. Half the info on this page is for one version and half is for the other.
# Dec 31 2009 at 10:38 PM Rating: Decent
does anyone know the respwn on this guy ?? trying to find him for my wizard and just nver up ..
Does not pop when server starts
# Dec 08 2009 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
So I logged in the *second* after the servers came back up when the Underfoot expansion was released, and guess who I'm looking at? Venril Sathir's Remains. There's no way that anyone killed him before I logged in, since according to /who all there were only 3 people total on the server so far. So don't expect him to be up just because you camp out in his room after a patch.

What does that mean for his spawn time? Does he just share a cycle with the remains and it's a certain percent chance that the real one will pop? I've killed his stupid remains 4 times in the last 3 days, and haven't seen the real thing once. Hopefully my luck will change.
I need current, concise info- HELP?
# Oct 02 2009 at 12:03 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
I have been camping VS for a while, all I get is VSR, so I go thru the motions with firefly globe, rez spell and VS, take him down, and get pulsing green stones x2 and bones.

I read all sorts of conflicting information... can someone please clear this up real VS versus VSR and what his spawn time really is?

Otherwise I am prolly gonna have to wait for a server downtime to get my gnarled staff.

*pulls her hair out*
Did someone say boom? BOOM!! ... sorry about your eyebrows
Downed him today
# Sep 14 2009 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
I killed the regular, tougher Venril Sathir earlier today on Druzzil/The Combine. Took him solo with a 70 SK 9K HP/1.9K AC/64 AAs with no merc. His regen was pretty ridiculous compared to my DPS so it took me a full five or six minutes to kill him. His highest hits that I can remember were upper 100s/lower 200s and I resisted his lifetap completely or partially the whole fight. I HTed him once he got to 20% for good measure and that was the killing blow. He dropped SS leggings, Lycanthropic Staff, Spell: Bedlam, and Blackened Iksar Bones. All in all a tough fight but doable even without uber gear or AAs. I'm sure many others have done it much more impressively or at a lower level, but just wanted to comment to put to bed the rumors (if any still exist) that his regen is unable to be overcome by a character of similar stature.

70 SK
Druzzil Ro
VS; VSR and Lame VS in one day
# Jun 19 2009 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
So it was time to go find VSR and spawn Lame VS to kill it. I run to KC pop up track and walla there is the Real VS up and happy. A wizzy friend needed his drop so I told them about Real VS being up and lalala VS was down shortly after.

Almost 1.5 real hours after the Real VS was slain wouldn't you know it VSR spawned. I waited till 6pm game time and attempted to cast flies and I got the message that it could only cast at night time. Tried again at 7pm game time and summoned a globe just fine. I always thought it was 6pm for the night/day switch.

I am level 63/290aa with defiant gear and a tank merc. I was able to take on Lame VS and survive with out one heal. Let merc tank and I sat back and poped Trueshot.

For those wondering if you could do it with merc I believe you can easily do this step alone.

My post was to call attention to the spawn cycle I experienced and to let you know lvl 63 with tank merc handled themselves just fine. I did not tank Lame VS I just sat back with trueshot.


Lenier of The Rathe
Spawn Cycle
# Jun 17 2009 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
83 posts
Ok, heres the down and dirty...and "NO" it makes no logical sense to me but what in this game does when it comes to spawn timers.

I killed the Real VS on 12 Jun 2009 @ 1120 and got the Wizzy Drop. I then started camping it again for a friend for the next 5 days. I would log in periodically to check and see if he was up and every time I was the only one camping him. However, this doesn't mean that someone didn't log in and kill him while I was away. But the spawn cycles that are posted in these forums can not be accurate...and this is why.

I killed VS Remains on the following times:

13 Jun 2009 @ 1120 AM
14 Jun 2009 @ 1100 AM
15 Jun 2009 @ 1000 AM
16 Jun 2009 @ 1100 AM

So, as you can see, there is no rhyme or reason to the spawn cycle which is previous listed. If it were, then the remains would not spawn every day unless the Real VS were also spawning everyday which I guess is possible, but I didn't log on at 8:00 am everyday to see if he was up. I logged in at between 10:00am and 11:00am to see if he had spawned.

Now, I finally got tired of all the schananagens and decided to camp the thing with my Monk FD'd in the room for as long as it takes from the time I killed the remains on the 16th of June. Well, low and behold he spawned at 11:45pm on the 16th of June. He dropped the Wizzy piece I needed so I was done with that mob, hopefully forever.

So, if you can put together a spawn cycle from this info, you are doing better than me. Would be interesting to know if he is now on a 11-12 hour spawn timer post VSR's death. Don't know, and don't intend on finding out. So, if you find out some additional information, please post it as to make this a bit easier for all concerned.

Thanks and happy hunting.
Lonewolff - 85 Monk - Fennin Ro
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"
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