CrimisonKnight Paladins and SK's don't need Furious Blow shield because they can generate more then enough aggro with their spells. This is for a raid warrior to be able to keep that big mob from stomping on rogues monks and nukers.
Speaking from an SK's point of view I think that you are semi right and semi wrong. With this shield AND the SK's and Pally's spells they should be able to keep agro good enough. Yes, raid warriors do need this to keep agro off of others, but why even bring up this arguement when SK's and Pallys can't even use this item? Warriors do get more defensive and offensive AA's and that proves them better off tanking. But a good SK or Pally can tank to about the same point as a warrior. *Prepares for flaming responses*
Actually, depending on the mob, sometimes a SK or Pally is definitely a better tank.
Most raids, Paladins make great MA's and then you put Warriors on the named mobs. 95% of the time you will have a warrior tank.
However, some mobs have special abilities or strategies to defeat them. Vallon Zek is stunnable, so we use Pally main tank on "real" VZ. Fake TZ for RZtW event has a directional AE, so we use a Paladin MT for him since they can grab aggro faster and generally are better at holding it, since if he turns it gets ugly.
On big DPS mobs, with long chains, yeah I'd rather a warrior tank. But sometimes you need a pally or sk to tank (actually, I can't think of any encounters where you "must" have an SK tank...)
I fully agree with you, a good pally or SK can and will pull aggro faster and hold it better that your average warrior. The reason nobody believes people that say this? All the poorly played SK and pallys out there. A couple don't learn to play their class and it gives all the rest a bad reputation. I'll admit though, a warrior will last longer, but a sk or pally always good to grab that aggro off the casters and hold it till the warrior can take it back and you know its true.
Yes pallies / sk's CAN maintain GREAT aggro. BUT....see if a warrior is using a BF with BoC or BF with Hategiver. I'm speaking something on the MA high end aggro level. Then they can obtain aggro just as fast. I don't know how many times i've been tanking so far that just in 1 tick, my BF / BoC proc'd rapidly (4-6 times) thats anywhere from 2.8k to 4.2k aggro easy as pie dished out before the cleric even called out a ch.
See what i think people misunderstand on the pally aggro vs. war aggro. Pally aggro is much more controlled. It is self done. YOU as the player control the aggro. But see thsi is good. but also bad. Your aggro is as only as fast as the recast time / cast time.
But, on the other hand. Warriors have to worry about if their weapon is going to proc some elite snap aggro. (I.E i am in love with bloodfrenzy. I've never see something proc so much !! ) Which is why it is somewhat sketchy. But as long as they are using some form of better aggro (HG,BF,BoC,DBoTW) then the proc rate will be alot higher unlike say if they were using a lower end procing aggro weapon (gorodons 1hs aggro weapon, poi dragon weapon etc etc.)
There is also the 2hander factor. Although I myself only own the poor mans bow (obsidian greatblade) I still can see why 2hander is somewhat a better choice. But imo is a situational thing. If you don't have a BF, but you have a BoW. Then there is no point rushing back to get a BF. BoW will do the job, its ratio / proc rate (as well if u augment it) will allow for decent aggro. But how i see it. I'd lik a bow...but to be honest. I'd hate having to bag bloodfrenzy. Its just such a kick a$$ weapon.
So i think the real factor is. How essential is the need for aggro? If the tank is going to charge a mob, or have it pulled on him, Then a warrior using a bow to tag / incite then taunt / snap aggro / will be a better choice.
But for a situation like lets say doing spider ring in Poair, then a pally imo would be a better choice b/c of the spin / stun etc etc. Their cast of a stun is faster, an more controlled as where if a warrior doesn't get a snap aggro proc, an then is stun'd an spinning, an clerics are healing em. Your looking at a few dead people.
If the mob can be kept into melee range, a warrior using dual enraging blow weapons augmented with LDoN or merchant augs + provoke line will generate enough aggro to tank anything. The only thing that pulls hate nowadays off them is a Beastlord too stupid to adjust his pet procs to pure DD, or a paladin chain casting stuns. About 40% of BLs and Pallies are just that level of stupid, in my experience.
There are mobs that Warriors should not tank, because the mobs run around, snare or knockback the warrior and debuff aggro. Tallon Zek in PoP (both in Times and Tactics), is a good example of such a mob. Yes,a warrior can try to tank it, but it's vastly more effective to have a knight with his long range aggro ability do it.
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Posted:Aug 01 2004 at 12:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well no kidding, "BF with hategiver". Hrm, lets put a warrior up on the chopping block with a Blade of Carnage and a Shield of Strife, hrm I wonder who's gonna hold aggro better. Jesus, wake up before you type this crap. You could give a ranger or a bard a good aggro proc and he could tank better than a warrior. But have you ever looked at the items with enraging blow and FB? Notice that a war is the only one that can equip 80% of all those item, Because A warrior needs all the help it can get. Why in god's name you even compare a warrior with a hate procing weapon to a pally without is beyond me. Its like lets see, I think a Dodge Viper could beat a Geo Metro in a drag race. "Really? your kidding, I'd have never guessed." And okay, recast time? This is another thing I've seen pally ***** up on, waste your time casting some big stun, for a little bit of aggro. Your not stunning, your taunting, use the fasted stun you've got and spam the hell out of it. Again, poorly played characters give everyone a bad name.
Even less likely to be read, but I tank quite often (and don't die) in WoS, with no defensive aas. So long as I have a slower, it's no problem, the cleric doesn't even have to chain blast heals on me, I survive more than long enough for a cheal =p.
Also, Rangers are good at snap aggro. I can't say anything about bards, never having played one. But I keep my taunt maxed, and in between that, my constant proc'ing of rune (with the 1hp that drops in WoS), and snare, I almost never lose aggro.
However... if you're talking about a ranger's aggro vs. a true tank's aggro... I don't think I could possibly pull aggro from my friend's level 75 SK. Even in WoS, when I've been tanking the mob to around 75-50%, he can come in, and immediately generate enough aggro that I can't pull it back without trying my hardest (which I haven't done, so I'm not sure if I could even get it back then).
Anyways... rangers aren't as flimsy as the jokes make us out to be. Though, I still laugh at them =p
Even less likely to be read, but I tank quite often (and don't die) in WoS, with no defensive aas. So long as I have a slower, it's no problem, the cleric doesn't even have to chain blast heals on me, I survive more than long enough for a cheal =p.
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Posted:Dec 02 2004 at 8:35 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ok im not gonna flame in this, but look, "warriors need all the help they can get" because they dont have spells, pointing that out at all is kind of worthless, and all of this aggro crap is completely off topic, (what kind of warrior would use a shield of strife and a boc just wondering?) and just another point- bards cant hold aggro even with a aggro procing weapon, iv tryed it with a friend bard who used a boc, didnt pull aggro off my character back in the day when i was using my 1.0 epics in BoT. comparing the warrior with a hate procer and a pally without is logical, it makes up for the spells, but anyway, enough is enough, paladins and sk's can tank, i give them that, but it all depends on the situation who you want to tank, Tank: "one who absorbes damage and keeps the mobs attention." whatever fits the bill
Just got this today, and I am curious about the focus effect. I currently dont have an EB weapon, and I am curious if this will still add 50% to hate even on a resisted proc. Example: am I better off using my crappy ratio epic which has a 500 point Hate proc that is resisted every single time, or using a better ratio weapon with a non hate proc that wont be resisted? I would be grateful to anyone that actually has this and can tell me how it works, Thanks.
To my knowledge, Furious Bash adds a modifier to the hate created from using the bash / slam skill, and adds NOTHING to the hate generated form weapon procs. I know it's all over these boards that this effect adds to hate generated from weapon procs, but from my experiences, and the collaberation of others, this seems to be very far from the case.
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Posted:Jun 19 2004 at 2:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) actualyl, when the modifier is set off (after bashing) if your weapon were to proc snap aggro, so lets say for 700 hate raise. With this mod of 50% then the hate would raise by 1050 hate + raise. I've notice that a shield tanking is the win =). It starts off somewhat slow. But once a few procs have gone off. You can run a mob around the zone with aggro lock.
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Posted:May 29 2003 at 7:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) As a 52 warrior, using say 2 bloodpoints.....I can do somewhere around 120-150 points of damage in the time it takes my bash button to pop back out.
I never played a warrior for long, and for the time that I did I never got too high, but with the proper use of hotkeys and/or UI skins, can't you have it so you can switch out your secondary weapon with the shield, then throw a bash out there, then put your weapon back? I used to do this with my monk to work on his 1hb and h2h skills, just switch it out every now and then.
I think Leenyn you misread what the effect is. It's not Increase spell/bash HASTE by 50% it's Increase spell/bash HATE by 50%.
This doesn't mean that your bash button will refresh 50% faster... it means that you will gain 50% more hate from it. For the Main Tank that will be using this shield it is not about DPS on major mobs, it's about getting and holding agro for the entire fight. This will increase how much that mob hates the warrior using this by much more then a fast 1 hander will. Now compared to a procing, fast 1 hander I honestly don't know how this Furious Bash V would fair as I have not seen any data on this. But considering this is a Focus Effect and not a Combat proc, that means that this effect will take place on every single bash. It sounds like this would be very useful of an item.
The entire point of the shield is really to help warriors maintain agro. For each bash of this shield, the effect adds 50 to your on the mob. Strictly for the tank to keep agro really, I myself haven't seen many procing things for warriors. [dont flame me, I'm only level 31]
Actually... if I had a BF I "might" be able to MT with that combo, I've heard of other warriors using that combo successfully. I use this shield simply for the additional ac when I'm handling mobs that rampage. Also, I make extensive use of the warrior ability to /shield our casters during raids. IF a shield is used with the /sh ability the ac of that shield directly effects the amount of damage taken by the warrior. I use this ability constantly while we raid and probably save our shamy's, clerics, and chanters a couple extra rez's daily. CC'ing mobs in pop can get you dead fast if you get a couple extra resists. As for holding agro, I Have tanked a few mobs using just this shield and a BoC and it seems to work ok but I prefer using my BoW honestly. imho SoE should have let paly's and sk's use this shield also. My guilds paly's and sk's do much of the CC and offtanking of un-mezable mobs on raids.
ton of hate eh? Is that a metric ton? I'm guessing that as the effect is permanent and will "increase spell/bash hate by 50%" that every proc of a main hand weap will incur 50% more hate than normal.
So if your main hand weap adds say, 500 lines of hate then with this shield equipped it will add 750 lines of hate with each proc.
Given that the main hand weap accounts for a majority of procs (80%? more?) throughout a fight this would seem like a huge increase in overall hate for warriors.
I also assume that bash adds a somewhat negligible amount of hate. Perhaps with the 50% increase and the fact that bash is somewhat controllable it might make grouping with wars much more feasible. Would be nice as wars sure got the shaft in terms of taunt with PoP.
There are parses on the Steel Warrior that show that, at level 65, your offhand will hit about 80% as often as you main hand. Assuming that's right, and there are several parses to prove it, your numbers are way off.
However, I have heard anecdotal evidence that offhand procs do not fire at the same rate as main hand procs. I don't know if this is true or not, but a warrior I know swears that the offhand weap procs as if your DEX is 75, no matter what your DEX is actually at.
With this shield, you'd therefore generate 105% as much hate with just the primary weapon, as you would dual wielding a pair of the same, PLUS, youd have the added hate from bash, AND the extra stats/AC/HP , making you able to tank more effectively.
and especially, think, if a warrior with this shield has, say, a weapon in primary like the blade of carnage, which has a proc that only generates hate, 700 points to be specific, with this shield they generate 1050 points of hate whenever they proc. that is a LOT of aggro, enough that other people could do just about anything without getting aggroed.
the effect is very nice, if you had a good EB 1hander you could use this in the offhand for the extra taunt.
Furious Bash V Classes: None Description: 1: Increase Spell/Bash Hate by 50%
Details: Raw spell data Spell Type: Detrimental Skill: Alteration Mana: 400 Target Type: Single Casting Time: 1.00 Duration: 1 ticks @L1 to 3.3 mins @L65 Recast Time: 0 Resist: Unresistable (0) Fizzle Time: 2.50 Range to target: 100 AE Radius: 0 Interruptable: Yes Location: Any Time of Day: Any
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Posted:May 29 2003 at 5:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Nice Sheild, except that I am a Paladin and started to drool over this,"WOOT! Increase in bash!" then noticed 'War' tag only, sigh, if only.... <snif><snif>
I'm an sk, I feel you pain bro, <snif><snif> too, you'd think they would put other classes that can bash on something like this, but oh well.....aye, we can always dream, my shield wielding bretheren. But I must say "Congratulations" to warriors out there who manages to obtain this beauty "woot", this is a shield-wielder's dream.....