Item
Just bought one on Prexus for 5k not sure why but like the delay
Sunflower Thorn
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[Drops | Comments ]
Drops: This item is found on creatures.  Scarlet Desert Zone(s) Found In: |
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 Uploaded November 27th, 2008 |
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5 posts
saw one for sale in bazaar on Quellious today its going for 75K >_< so it hasn't been nerfed.
My brother farmed scarlet desert for a few weeks and finally got one of these in mid '04. He passed it on to me and i've been using it since. The best piercing training weapon that i've ever seen.
Equip this on a low level rogue for instant fun.
Equip this on a low level rogue for instant fun.
25 posts
I have yet to se this "Thorny Sunflower" pop. Has anyone seen this mob lately? I haven't ever seen this weapon for sale either. It is nice, but after killing so many 'flowers in SD I am beginning to think this got nerfed....(
46 posts
Circ Chrich 34th Seaeson ranger of Tunare, buying one of these babies on Ec'i, won't be on for about 2 weeks tho pST when im on , trading for it also
Nice little rogue weapon for when you want to solo; great for anyone who wants to get their piercing skills up quickly. Wouldn't want to use it in a grouping situation, where a higher damage weapon is needed for backstabbing -- depending on your melee stats, you could simply put this one in your offhand to add some DEX and STR to the attack (although something else with high damage is usually preferred)... and the extra hit points can't hurt either.
Bought for 50pp on M. Marr -- great replacement for my Tombcarver.
Bought for 50pp on M. Marr -- great replacement for my Tombcarver.
Scholar
18 posts
I have one of these for sale on Veeshan, but not sure how much I should sell it for. Any ideas?
Almost as good as that ranger only whips that drops off the rats in hate (5/14 i think).
Can my used mainhand, droppable, killer stats, and usable by more than ranger.
Probably a high priced item when auctioned..of course newbies will be laughing.
Can my used mainhand, droppable, killer stats, and usable by more than ranger.
Probably a high priced item when auctioned..of course newbies will be laughing.
11 posts
How much do it worth? i m surly want to get one for my war. need to use tantor tusk so need fast raise my skill points in shortest time. also this is a great weapon for lowbie or borrow to guild members to raise skill
13 posts
i'm not sure you guys are realizing the potential
the reason the moss covered twig was such an uber weapon (prenerf) was that there is a bonus for the weapon in your primary hand...based on strength
this is DIFFERENT from the damage bonus that shows up on the weapon
the reason the prenerf twig was hitting so hard was because of this primary-hand str bonus...hence the reason they made it secondary-only
a weapon with a delay of 15 that can go in primary is a deadly force to be reckoned with
the damage/second in the offhand may not be as good as a lammy, but if this is in primary, prepare to puree your enemies
Edited, Thu Apr 11 05:20:42 2002
the reason the moss covered twig was such an uber weapon (prenerf) was that there is a bonus for the weapon in your primary hand...based on strength
this is DIFFERENT from the damage bonus that shows up on the weapon
the reason the prenerf twig was hitting so hard was because of this primary-hand str bonus...hence the reason they made it secondary-only
a weapon with a delay of 15 that can go in primary is a deadly force to be reckoned with
the damage/second in the offhand may not be as good as a lammy, but if this is in primary, prepare to puree your enemies
Edited, Thu Apr 11 05:20:42 2002
#REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 11 2002 at 12:49 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I was just informed that warriors cant go above 200 in piercing, but rogues can.
2 posts
um warriors can go above 200 in piercing, we just max out at like 240...as appose to our slashing and rogues max in pierce
51 warrior
51 warrior
I found this dagger a while back in The Scarlet Desert; it dropped on "A Thorny Sunflower". I was playing my level 50 necromancer, soloing the various lightcrawlers and sunflowers between the large plateu and the nearby zone wall. I assume this particular sunflower can spawn in the place of any sunflower, or any random monster spawn.
I was pretty impressed with the stats and the low delay... but when I first obtained this weapon, it was missing probably THE most important statistic... equipable slot! There was no "Slot:" field on the item, so not even the listed classes could equip it. I thought it may be for a quest, but it still seemed like a nice dagger to use, so I sent some /feedback every once in a while when I noticed it sitting in my bank. Eventually, they fixed it. For the time being, it's the primary weapon for my level 46 ranger. :)
I was pretty impressed with the stats and the low delay... but when I first obtained this weapon, it was missing probably THE most important statistic... equipable slot! There was no "Slot:" field on the item, so not even the listed classes could equip it. I thought it may be for a quest, but it still seemed like a nice dagger to use, so I sent some /feedback every once in a while when I noticed it sitting in my bank. Eventually, they fixed it. For the time being, it's the primary weapon for my level 46 ranger. :)
49 posts
Wouldn't this be better than a lammy, for a main tank, simply due to delay? I remember when Kunark came out there was something like a 3/12 that dropped and it was far too good, it made the game trivial cause there were no aggro issues. Since aggro (to my knowledge) is calculated more from how many hits you land as opposed to how much damage you do, would this not be better than a 9/19 in that respect? After all, the main tank isn't supposed to be a major damage dealer, he's just a major damage taker.
You're wrong.
Damage = Aggro, it's just that at higher levels warriors (and other melees) get big damage bonuses per hit, but warriors hit harder than SKs/Pallies. By using a faster weapon, one makes use of this big bonus to damage better, which is why fast weapons are good. If I knew the actual numbers VI uses I could calculate what the precise effects would be, but...
Also, weapons with huge aggro causing procs, like Willsapper (procs a 50%+ slow, think it's 50%+1/level, procs at 51 I think...) and Whip of Ensnaring (procs snare, which is TONS of agg on high end mobs) are good for simply tanking. Spells = Aggro, low delay = more chance to proc = more aggro causing spells. It's a tossup as to what is better.
Still though, nothing beats a wurm from 20-50, not for warriors and rangers, at least. Lammies are nice twinkage, but Wurms almost have the damage/delay of PRIMAL, and ratio is all that matters really from 1-50.
Damage = Aggro, it's just that at higher levels warriors (and other melees) get big damage bonuses per hit, but warriors hit harder than SKs/Pallies. By using a faster weapon, one makes use of this big bonus to damage better, which is why fast weapons are good. If I knew the actual numbers VI uses I could calculate what the precise effects would be, but...
Also, weapons with huge aggro causing procs, like Willsapper (procs a 50%+ slow, think it's 50%+1/level, procs at 51 I think...) and Whip of Ensnaring (procs snare, which is TONS of agg on high end mobs) are good for simply tanking. Spells = Aggro, low delay = more chance to proc = more aggro causing spells. It's a tossup as to what is better.
Still though, nothing beats a wurm from 20-50, not for warriors and rangers, at least. Lammies are nice twinkage, but Wurms almost have the damage/delay of PRIMAL, and ratio is all that matters really from 1-50.
Actually, agro is a function of both damage and number of hits. Player A hiting a mob for 100 damage in 4 25 damage hits will accrue far less agro than Player B who inflicts 100 damage in the same period with 10 10 damage hits.
Look at it this way. Every hit does X amount of Hate, regardless of damage. Damage is then added to X, for the total Hate generation of the hit. If you are hitting fast enough, you will generate taunt far more quickly. I know of Rangers who use Wurmies (despite the fact that they do LESS damage than a Lamentation post 50, I have parsed this) and Centi/LSoEE in offhand to keep agro down while attempting to maximize damage. Its not something I've ever had to do, and I don't like the loss you take on main-hand damage bonus, but in any event, weapon speed does have a major role in agro generation.
As far as damage goes... comparing thiw with a Rev Whip is probably fairly close. Post-56 or so for a Ranger, a Rev-Whip will outdamage a Lamentation. At level 56-60, this could do some nice damage with enough Haste tacked onto it. There's better out there, obviously, but if you NEEDED a relatively non-difficult item for mainhand fast damage, this would be a pretty viable option.
Look at it this way. Every hit does X amount of Hate, regardless of damage. Damage is then added to X, for the total Hate generation of the hit. If you are hitting fast enough, you will generate taunt far more quickly. I know of Rangers who use Wurmies (despite the fact that they do LESS damage than a Lamentation post 50, I have parsed this) and Centi/LSoEE in offhand to keep agro down while attempting to maximize damage. Its not something I've ever had to do, and I don't like the loss you take on main-hand damage bonus, but in any event, weapon speed does have a major role in agro generation.
As far as damage goes... comparing thiw with a Rev Whip is probably fairly close. Post-56 or so for a Ranger, a Rev-Whip will outdamage a Lamentation. At level 56-60, this could do some nice damage with enough Haste tacked onto it. There's better out there, obviously, but if you NEEDED a relatively non-difficult item for mainhand fast damage, this would be a pretty viable option.
49 posts
Why then, even with the added damage bonuses and upped minimum damages on 2h swords, aren't 2h'ers used more by main tanks? It's pretty well agreed upon that a very good 2h does more damage overall than dual wielding... my own log parsings have shown I do more damage with Strength of Grodan (41/51) over a two-minute uninterrupted fight than I do dual-wielding Crafted Velium Warsword (10/18) and Long Sword of Ethereal Energy (16/29).
Just trying to understand this, I've been reading and believing for a while that the delay was what was important, that a 10/18 would be better than a 13/21.
Just trying to understand this, I've been reading and believing for a while that the delay was what was important, that a 10/18 would be better than a 13/21.
20 posts
was 3/10 on one of them. there were 2 and forget if that was the good one or the bad one. was nerfed because of the dmg output. at the time the damage bonus wasn't calculated as an inverse to your delay(or something close to that), so people were hitting in the 50-60 range with 10 delay. one of the reasons you don't see any 10 dly weapons anymore =P. unsure about the agro thing but sounds right.
AT FIRST GLANCE IT IS HARD TO DECIDE HOW GOOD THIS WEAPON IS. WELL IT IS A GREAT WEAPON HERE ARE A FEW REASONS WHY.
1) GET THAT PIERCE SKILL UP. HEY YOU WANT TO BRING THAT PIERCING SKILL OUT OF THE GUTTER THIS BABY WILL WILL REALLY GET YOUR SKILL MOVING. GOOD GUILDS MIGHT BANK ONE TO PASS AROUND AS A TRAINING DEVICE TO MAX WEAPON SKILLS.
2) ALWAYS THE TWINK OPTION. THIS WEAPON WOULD BE PRETTY GOOD FOR A TWINK BECAUSE IT HAS GOOD DAMAGE RATIO. THIS HAS 3 OF 4 KEY STATS FOR BEGINNER MEELES HP, AGI, AND DEX WHICH ARE IMPORTANT STATS FOR ALL BEGINNING CLASSES.
3)**key attribute** DUAL WEILDING THIS PAIRED WITH JADE MACE, LUPINE DAGGER, LAMMY... YOU GET THE PICTURE. TANK WILL BE HITTING TARGET MORE, AND KEEPING AGRO UNDER CONTROL. THE QUICKER A TANK CAN STRIKE. THE SOONER THE MOB STOPS NAILING MY COFFIN SHUT.
4) MOB SPECIFIC WEAPON, YOUR GOING ON A RAID TO KILL NAGA(INSERT FIRE BASES MOB HERE). HEY +10 FIRE RESIST IS NICE.
5) 8AGI = 8AC OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, GREAT ATTRIBUTE FOR A DUAL WEILD ITEM.
6) JUST CRUNCHING NUMBERS, (USING A SIMPLE DAMAGE PER SECOND RATIO) AS YOU GET HIGHER IN LEVEL THE BETTER SUN-THORN GETS. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO A LAMMY WHEN YOUR DAMAGE BONUS GETS ABOVE 16 THE SUN-THORN WILL OUT DAMAGE THE LAMMY. I DONT HAVE A 60 TANK SO I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANY CAPS ON DAMAGE BONUS. <strength bonus only goes to 11 so this is incorrect>
HEY I WOULD LOVE TO OWN ONE OF THESE. I WILL HAVE TO GO TO SCARLET DESERT AND SEE IF I CAN GET ONE. THIS WEAPON WILL BE GREAT FOR YOUR CHARACTERS ENTIRE LIFE. IF YOU GET SOMETHING BETTER MID LIFE, HANG ON TO THIS IT GETS BETTER WITH AGE. NOT BAD, NOT BAD AT ALL.
I NOTICED SK'S COULD USE THIS? (HEHE JOKE BY VI TO IRRITATE PALI'S).
You may now flame me for spelling, info errors, or because you don't like kats and frogs.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 21:46:06 2002
1) GET THAT PIERCE SKILL UP. HEY YOU WANT TO BRING THAT PIERCING SKILL OUT OF THE GUTTER THIS BABY WILL WILL REALLY GET YOUR SKILL MOVING. GOOD GUILDS MIGHT BANK ONE TO PASS AROUND AS A TRAINING DEVICE TO MAX WEAPON SKILLS.
2) ALWAYS THE TWINK OPTION. THIS WEAPON WOULD BE PRETTY GOOD FOR A TWINK BECAUSE IT HAS GOOD DAMAGE RATIO. THIS HAS 3 OF 4 KEY STATS FOR BEGINNER MEELES HP, AGI, AND DEX WHICH ARE IMPORTANT STATS FOR ALL BEGINNING CLASSES.
3)**key attribute** DUAL WEILDING THIS PAIRED WITH JADE MACE, LUPINE DAGGER, LAMMY... YOU GET THE PICTURE. TANK WILL BE HITTING TARGET MORE, AND KEEPING AGRO UNDER CONTROL. THE QUICKER A TANK CAN STRIKE. THE SOONER THE MOB STOPS NAILING MY COFFIN SHUT.
4) MOB SPECIFIC WEAPON, YOUR GOING ON A RAID TO KILL NAGA(INSERT FIRE BASES MOB HERE). HEY +10 FIRE RESIST IS NICE.
5) 8AGI = 8AC OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, GREAT ATTRIBUTE FOR A DUAL WEILD ITEM.
6) JUST CRUNCHING NUMBERS, (USING A SIMPLE DAMAGE PER SECOND RATIO) AS YOU GET HIGHER IN LEVEL THE BETTER SUN-THORN GETS. IF YOU COMPARE IT TO A LAMMY WHEN YOUR DAMAGE BONUS GETS ABOVE 16 THE SUN-THORN WILL OUT DAMAGE THE LAMMY. I DONT HAVE A 60 TANK SO I DON'T KNOW ABOUT ANY CAPS ON DAMAGE BONUS. <strength bonus only goes to 11 so this is incorrect>
HEY I WOULD LOVE TO OWN ONE OF THESE. I WILL HAVE TO GO TO SCARLET DESERT AND SEE IF I CAN GET ONE. THIS WEAPON WILL BE GREAT FOR YOUR CHARACTERS ENTIRE LIFE. IF YOU GET SOMETHING BETTER MID LIFE, HANG ON TO THIS IT GETS BETTER WITH AGE. NOT BAD, NOT BAD AT ALL.
I NOTICED SK'S COULD USE THIS? (HEHE JOKE BY VI TO IRRITATE PALI'S).
You may now flame me for spelling, info errors, or because you don't like kats and frogs.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 21:46:06 2002
20 posts
This is in response to your number 3 on your list. I am a paladin of the 39th season. I use Shieldstorm which is a 2h sword if you didn't know. Many times I have stolen the aggro from a monk and dualwielding classes all the time without even using my taunt skill so you do not know what your talking about buddy.
Courtesy of Copeland's Weapon Analyzer, this weapon will never outdamage a lammy.
Level 60 Warrior, 255 str, 75% haste
Lammy: 2946dpm
Sunflower Thorn: 2660dpm
This is figgured with just the weapon damage and close to max haste and str to show the best possible of both.
The low delay may induce more argo. I dont know of a calculator that determines argo /shrug
Edit by request: The weapon analyzer is a downloadable program. The Copeland site is (or was the lasttime i checked) not longer accessable. There are some guild pages that still have it but i dont know which one and i am not going to hunt for it.
Maybe "never" is an extreme statement. However, the numbers i ran are for the very close to the best case. A level 60 war with a 255 str to give the maximum damage bonus and a haste of 75%. The premise of your "proof" is incorrect. There is a maximum to the damage bonus; so the original damage will not become negligible.
The damage bonus for a 1h weapon is the same for all 1h weapons based on the user level (this is why dif peeps see dif bonuses when they look an item). For a level 60 war, the bonus with 1h weapons is 11 - regardless of the weapon stats. Give a level 60 a rusty rapier and a wurmmy and have him/her tell you the bonus if you dont believe me. You (as a shaman) will never see the damage bonus field because you dont get one.
I am not flaming in any way and i am sorry if you took it that way. I play a warrior (not level 60,yet) and was seriously interested in this for the taunt, so I ran the numbers for ME and shared them on this forum.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 12:58:43 2002
Level 60 Warrior, 255 str, 75% haste
Lammy: 2946dpm
Sunflower Thorn: 2660dpm
This is figgured with just the weapon damage and close to max haste and str to show the best possible of both.
The low delay may induce more argo. I dont know of a calculator that determines argo /shrug
Edit by request: The weapon analyzer is a downloadable program. The Copeland site is (or was the lasttime i checked) not longer accessable. There are some guild pages that still have it but i dont know which one and i am not going to hunt for it.
Maybe "never" is an extreme statement. However, the numbers i ran are for the very close to the best case. A level 60 war with a 255 str to give the maximum damage bonus and a haste of 75%. The premise of your "proof" is incorrect. There is a maximum to the damage bonus; so the original damage will not become negligible.
The damage bonus for a 1h weapon is the same for all 1h weapons based on the user level (this is why dif peeps see dif bonuses when they look an item). For a level 60 war, the bonus with 1h weapons is 11 - regardless of the weapon stats. Give a level 60 a rusty rapier and a wurmmy and have him/her tell you the bonus if you dont believe me. You (as a shaman) will never see the damage bonus field because you dont get one.
I am not flaming in any way and i am sorry if you took it that way. I play a warrior (not level 60,yet) and was seriously interested in this for the taunt, so I ran the numbers for ME and shared them on this forum.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 12:58:43 2002
10 posts
Anoter ting is i mean the lowest delay.. unles they changed w/o me knowing can be nine... so if ur saying 75% haste with these 2 bugges, they both go below 9 makin em both 9 delay...heck man... a LsoEE dly goes below 9 with this haste... so i mean try a different haste like Schw or somethin =P i mean a lsoee 16 dmg 9 dly or a lammy 9/9 or a thorn 5/9 humm lol
#REDACTED,
Posted: May 02 2002 at 12:37 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yeah, uh, right, umm ... heh... u have absolutly no life, i mean, oh no! im not going to do more dmg... i need to prove the other person wrong by doing these mathematical equations so i can prove to them a lammy is better than this sunflower thorn.. i got better things to do than read this stuff...After all, its just a very addcitive game... I will be uber one day!... what do they define uber as... i mean, i remember when 2 fighting batons and a full set of wus was uber... u know, i saw this monk wriping apart gnolls in BB, while i had a rusty scimitar... now a common 51 monk has a fungi and a tstaff...
edit<lol sorry DENecro (Flame... counter flame...) Not what you or I intended. Just trying to get this figured out and you are helping a great deal>
I dont know what formula(s) that are used for Copeland's Weapon analyzer. Using simple math the Sun-Thorn will out damage the Lammy with a damage bonus of 17. <strength damage bonus caps at 11 ty for info>
First lets establish what I think the delay number means. EQ time is based on tens, casting time of 34 means you will wait 3.4 (34/10)seconds for the spell to do some effect. Delay is the same, a delay of 16 means every 1.6 (16/10)seconds you will attack with your weapon.
With no damage bonus
Lammy damage per second: 9/1.9 = 4.74
Sun-thorn damage per second: 5/1.6 = 3.125
Lammy is better here
add 17 damage to each swing
Lammy (9+17)/1.9 = 13.68
Sun-Thorn (5+17)/1.6 = 13.75
Sun-Thorn is better here
In addition I interpret the 9 on a lammy as similar to 1d9 from old school AD&D (I know there is no 9 sided dice, this is just an example). This indicates that with every swing your raw damage can be anywhere from 1 to 9 damage. As the damage bonus increases the importance of the original 1 to 9 becomes negligable.
Take an extreem example damage bonus of 100
Sun-Thorn damage averages 101 to 105
Lammy damage averages 101 to 109
you know the minimum damage is 101 for every swing. As you can see the original damage is insiginificant.
Hey just an old school guy using old school AD&D numbers to figure stuff out. If I'm wrong, please show me why, so I and everyone else can get a better understanding of this game.
EDIT <continued>
Thank you for the information about the site to bad its not up anymore.
If 11 is the highest strength damage bonus you can get. Then the Sun-thorn will not out damage a lammy.
Lammy(11+9)/1.9= 10.53 dmg per sec
SunThorn (11+5)/1.6= 10 Dps
Swings per min calc with 75% haste
Lammy 60/1.9= 31.58, 31.58*1.75= 55.27, 55.27*20=1,105.3 Dmg per minute
Sun-thorn 60/1.6= 37.5, 37.5*1.75= 65.63, 65.63*16= 1,010.08 Dpm
Unfortunatly with these numbers the damage per minute are roughly 1/2 of Copeland sight listed. There must be other factors that have been excluded. In addition this also assumes that lammy and sunthorn max for each hit if you average the damage (4.5 vs 9) for lammy and (2.5 vs 5) for sunthorn, the sun thorn gets a slight edge over a lammy with strength damage of 11.
Are character level damage bonus and strength bonus seperate? Are there weapon skill damage bonuses? If so I will have to recalculate using further adjustments.
If any 60 meeles (255 str) have a lammy can you please provide confirmation on the maximum damage you can hit for with Lammy? (not including Crits)
(we are looking for 20 max damage here)<29 actualy>
If any 60 meeles (255 str) have a Sunflower Thorn can you please provide confirmation on the maximum damage for it as well (again no Crits)
(we are looking for 16 max damage here)<21 actually>
Thank you for any help on this.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 20:02:43 2002
I dont know what formula(s) that are used for Copeland's Weapon analyzer. Using simple math the Sun-Thorn will out damage the Lammy with a damage bonus of 17. <strength damage bonus caps at 11 ty for info>
First lets establish what I think the delay number means. EQ time is based on tens, casting time of 34 means you will wait 3.4 (34/10)seconds for the spell to do some effect. Delay is the same, a delay of 16 means every 1.6 (16/10)seconds you will attack with your weapon.
With no damage bonus
Lammy damage per second: 9/1.9 = 4.74
Sun-thorn damage per second: 5/1.6 = 3.125
Lammy is better here
add 17 damage to each swing
Lammy (9+17)/1.9 = 13.68
Sun-Thorn (5+17)/1.6 = 13.75
Sun-Thorn is better here
In addition I interpret the 9 on a lammy as similar to 1d9 from old school AD&D (I know there is no 9 sided dice, this is just an example). This indicates that with every swing your raw damage can be anywhere from 1 to 9 damage. As the damage bonus increases the importance of the original 1 to 9 becomes negligable.
Take an extreem example damage bonus of 100
Sun-Thorn damage averages 101 to 105
Lammy damage averages 101 to 109
you know the minimum damage is 101 for every swing. As you can see the original damage is insiginificant.
Hey just an old school guy using old school AD&D numbers to figure stuff out. If I'm wrong, please show me why, so I and everyone else can get a better understanding of this game.
EDIT <continued>
Thank you for the information about the site to bad its not up anymore.
If 11 is the highest strength damage bonus you can get. Then the Sun-thorn will not out damage a lammy.
Lammy(11+9)/1.9= 10.53 dmg per sec
SunThorn (11+5)/1.6= 10 Dps
Swings per min calc with 75% haste
Lammy 60/1.9= 31.58, 31.58*1.75= 55.27, 55.27*20=1,105.3 Dmg per minute
Sun-thorn 60/1.6= 37.5, 37.5*1.75= 65.63, 65.63*16= 1,010.08 Dpm
Unfortunatly with these numbers the damage per minute are roughly 1/2 of Copeland sight listed. There must be other factors that have been excluded. In addition this also assumes that lammy and sunthorn max for each hit if you average the damage (4.5 vs 9) for lammy and (2.5 vs 5) for sunthorn, the sun thorn gets a slight edge over a lammy with strength damage of 11.
Are character level damage bonus and strength bonus seperate? Are there weapon skill damage bonuses? If so I will have to recalculate using further adjustments.
If any 60 meeles (255 str) have a lammy can you please provide confirmation on the maximum damage you can hit for with Lammy? (not including Crits)
(we are looking for 20 max damage here)<29 actualy>
If any 60 meeles (255 str) have a Sunflower Thorn can you please provide confirmation on the maximum damage for it as well (again no Crits)
(we are looking for 16 max damage here)<21 actually>
Thank you for any help on this.
Edited, Thu Apr 11 20:02:43 2002
Here is the damage formula:
[MAXIMUM DAMAGE; PRIMARY]
1.) DamageBonus = (Level - 25) / 3
* Damage Bonuses are always rounded down (ie, 7.65 = 7)
2.) MaximumDamage = WeaponDamage * ((Strength + WeaponSkill) / 100) + DamageBonus
As you can see, and quickly calculate, a level 60 has a damage bonus of 11 [(60-25)/3 => 11)
Normal damage = Weapondamage * 2 + damage bonus. (normal damage accounts for most hits)
The lammy max dam is 9*((255+250)/100)+11=>56 (norm dam is 29)
The thorn is 5*((255+240)/100)+11=>35 (norm dam is 21)
I used the weapon analyzer to account for max skill double attack, 75% maximum hit rate, 75% haste, and max skill with the weapon - max damage is statistically applied. Please note, 250 is max skill with 1hs while 240 is max pierce for a warrior. Also note that the DPM yielded from copeland's is a theoretical number. That is to say, all variables remain constant for the purpose of _weapon comparison_. Actual values in combat will varry. However, over time the lammy will outdamage the thorn.
[MAXIMUM DAMAGE; PRIMARY]
1.) DamageBonus = (Level - 25) / 3
* Damage Bonuses are always rounded down (ie, 7.65 = 7)
2.) MaximumDamage = WeaponDamage * ((Strength + WeaponSkill) / 100) + DamageBonus
As you can see, and quickly calculate, a level 60 has a damage bonus of 11 [(60-25)/3 => 11)
Normal damage = Weapondamage * 2 + damage bonus. (normal damage accounts for most hits)
The lammy max dam is 9*((255+250)/100)+11=>56 (norm dam is 29)
The thorn is 5*((255+240)/100)+11=>35 (norm dam is 21)
I used the weapon analyzer to account for max skill double attack, 75% maximum hit rate, 75% haste, and max skill with the weapon - max damage is statistically applied. Please note, 250 is max skill with 1hs while 240 is max pierce for a warrior. Also note that the DPM yielded from copeland's is a theoretical number. That is to say, all variables remain constant for the purpose of _weapon comparison_. Actual values in combat will varry. However, over time the lammy will outdamage the thorn.
Great information thanks DENecro
Ill get this information in excell and update my spread sheet. I still want to get one of these daggers, really nice weapon useful for adjusting how you play your game. Have to get a Lammy too ;o)
Ill get this information in excell and update my spread sheet. I still want to get one of these daggers, really nice weapon useful for adjusting how you play your game. Have to get a Lammy too ;o)
#REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 09 2002 at 10:36 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Hey Tholos, try hitting caps lock once in a while for chrissakes!!
Well I started in caps, put down a few thoughts and didnt want to go back and rewrite it. Call me lazy but its still the same. Will try to keep posts out of caps. Anyhow hope your doing well and catch you on the server.
Edited, Wed Apr 10 10:50:46 2002
Edited, Wed Apr 10 10:50:46 2002
5 posts
*PREFACE - LONG POST*
The stats are nice for a secondary weapon. However being that there is no damage bonus for offhand weapons all that realy matters is Ratio. As for primary hand you want fast, the faster the better in most cases, the theory being that the more times you hit the more times your damage bonus can be applied. The problem is there comes a point where the damage bonus doesn't make up for the lack of actual damage on the weapon.
For Rogues this weapon is too low primary hand damage and would cripple the rouges backstab usefullness. And for a warrior the ratio of this compared to a lammy (which is not the best but it's a common peice of high 40's gear)
Lamentation 9/19 .47ratio
Sunflower Thorn 5/16 .31 ratio
now if you take into count the damage bonus melee classes receive (using a warrior at lvl 51 assuming max skill in both peircing and 1hs)
With the lamentation you are looking at an average hit of 22-24+8 or 30-32 every 1.9 seconds
and the Sunflower would have an average hit of just over half that or 12-14+8 or 20-22 ever 1.5 seconds.
delay in seconds * number of swings equals total time.
1.9*15=28.5
1.5*19=28.5
what this says is that for 28.5 seconds you would get 15 lammy swings or 19 sunflower pokes.
so multiply that by the average minimum damage and...
15*30=450
19*20=380
A subtle difference but I would take the lammy ;)
Edited, Tue Apr 9 18:30:18 2002
The stats are nice for a secondary weapon. However being that there is no damage bonus for offhand weapons all that realy matters is Ratio. As for primary hand you want fast, the faster the better in most cases, the theory being that the more times you hit the more times your damage bonus can be applied. The problem is there comes a point where the damage bonus doesn't make up for the lack of actual damage on the weapon.
For Rogues this weapon is too low primary hand damage and would cripple the rouges backstab usefullness. And for a warrior the ratio of this compared to a lammy (which is not the best but it's a common peice of high 40's gear)
Lamentation 9/19 .47ratio
Sunflower Thorn 5/16 .31 ratio
now if you take into count the damage bonus melee classes receive (using a warrior at lvl 51 assuming max skill in both peircing and 1hs)
With the lamentation you are looking at an average hit of 22-24+8 or 30-32 every 1.9 seconds
and the Sunflower would have an average hit of just over half that or 12-14+8 or 20-22 ever 1.5 seconds.
delay in seconds * number of swings equals total time.
1.9*15=28.5
1.5*19=28.5
what this says is that for 28.5 seconds you would get 15 lammy swings or 19 sunflower pokes.
so multiply that by the average minimum damage and...
15*30=450
19*20=380
A subtle difference but I would take the lammy ;)
Edited, Tue Apr 9 18:30:18 2002
I never knew exactly what the damage and delay numbers meant. From your post, I can surmise that the delay listed on the weapon is the time between hits in seconds multiplied by ten, i.e., a delay of 19 = 1.9 seconds between hits.
You obviously used the damage number to determine the average hit, but I can't figure out the formula just from reading your post. I assume level is figured into it as well as the wielder's weapon skill. Would you mind sharing the formula?
Also, what formula did you use to calculate the damage bonus?
I've been wondering this for a while...
You obviously used the damage number to determine the average hit, but I can't figure out the formula just from reading your post. I assume level is figured into it as well as the wielder's weapon skill. Would you mind sharing the formula?
Also, what formula did you use to calculate the damage bonus?
I've been wondering this for a while...
this weapon does do a fair ammount of damage in anyones hands who has trained the skill but its especially useful to a rogue because of the +8 Dex.
Given dmg bonus, at 45 this is almost as good as a Lammy, but it's piercing which makes it not so good for WAR, but nice for ROG (ROG gets dmg bonus, right?)
By 60, there's almost no difference between the two, but you probably have access to MUCH nicer, even if you haven't been able to do your epic.
I don't know ROG weaps as well as WAR, but how are the options for low-delay primaries with stat bonuses?
By 60, there's almost no difference between the two, but you probably have access to MUCH nicer, even if you haven't been able to do your epic.
I don't know ROG weaps as well as WAR, but how are the options for low-delay primaries with stat bonuses?
Why would a Warrior not want it because it's piercing? Warriors cap uptil 50th is 200 for piercing as it is with 1HS and 2HS etc
Personally I see the best use for this is a skill gainer, either in piercing or Dual Wield. By the time that your damage bonus makes this a viable primary hand weapon you are likely to be wielding something better.
Personally I see the best use for this is a skill gainer, either in piercing or Dual Wield. By the time that your damage bonus makes this a viable primary hand weapon you are likely to be wielding something better.
18 posts
I would never use this weapon on a rogue in their 40's. It's hard to manage aggro with anything under a delay of 20. Not every tank in the game is well eqipped enough to be able to out taunt a rogue with a VERY low delay weapon. My job is not to suck up the mana of the healers. My job is to do damage and not take damage. This weapon is a sure fire way to have plenty of mobs beating the tar out of you as a rogue. If you're soloing, maybe...but the low dmg on the weapon makes it not very worthwhile as an option. If you can get this weapon, you can most likely save some cash and buy a locustlure instead if you need the speed. 8/17 much better ratio...no stats, but procs walking sleep at 45. Nice for soloing. Just my 2cp worth.
er....ever hear of EVADE?
2 posts
it wouldn't be as good/almost as good as a lammy because the lammy would have the dmg bonus too
25 posts
uhhhh the damage bonus is the same for all 1handed weapons reguardless of delay, so the damage bonus would be applied more often (faster = more hits) to this weapon than the lammy (this is why you don't see high level tanks w/ a wurmslayer very often). The lammy would probably still do more total damage, but for keeping aggro this thing would rock. Since keeping aggro is usually more important to a warrior than dealing damage, this might be a good alternative to the lammy. Everything changes however if you're not the main tank then damage is all important w/ as little aggro as possible heh...
9 posts
rogues need high damage for primary(for backstab) but for secondary the stats would be nice
2 posts
Nice stats... too bad it wasnt higher damage, or range
#REDACTED,
Posted: Apr 09 2002 at 3:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) What does it drop off of =P (w00t first post)
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