Classes: The Paladin
 | Paladins - Icons of Virtue. The paladin combines the strength and battle prowess of a fighter with the healing and buffing of a cleric.
What is the best strategy for developing your paladin? Can a paladin be soloed, and if so, how? How should you play your paladin within a group? What skills should you concentrate on developing? What spells are most useful, and least useful? What armor and weapons should your paladin be seeking out? Post your strategies on how to best play and develop the Paladin and read, rate and comment on what others have to say. |
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390 hp undead proc with WA maxed out and SU 3 with a good 2 hander a Pally will definately out DPS a warrior on undead but there are not a whole lot of undead around so it doesn't much matter.
Pallies have but 4 uses in groups that I have come across. Here they come in order of importance. Patch healing for cleric/druid/shammie when they are LOM. Off tanking adds. Combat rezzes (mainly raids) Backup DPS
While I have to say pallies do in fact have their uses, it utterly disgusts me when a pally wants to be main tank. They can get snap agro from puller sure, but overall cant hold it anywhere near as much as a warrior. Their DPS severely lacks to that of the gimpest 70 warrior I have yet seen even if pally is Time geared and warrior only has gimp named OoW gear.
Here has been my observations as a mage in a group with a warrior as tank. Warrior's out DPS's pallies. I have not seen an exception yet, tho I am sure one day I might. More DPS = mobs go down quicker and healers have more mana.
Pulls can continue at a higher rate therefor getting us more XP. Their (Pally) lack of DPS means additional group DPS needs to come into play, sometimes very much so that the group runs out of mana both on healers side and casting DPS greatly slowing the amount of XP gotten.
With their inability to have sustained agro, only snap agro. a lot of casters die with a pally as main tank. Given I reduce my DPS with a pally tanking as I know their DPS lacks, so that is not too much of a problem for me, but is for many other casters I have seen. So therefor me reducing my DPS means less XP for the group as mage DPS is very high when you tandem our pets (I had my pet parsed... out DPS'ed many pallies at lvl 70 for the person running the parse.) But still, slower kills is less XP, and me reducing my DPS meant the cleric was spending a lot more mana.
Now do not get me wrong, when a pally is in group as well as a warrior, it makes for a very good group, if the pally sticks to his job in the proper order on which I said at the beginning, kills are fast, cleric has mana, I have mana, lotsa pulls can be brought in meaning more XP :). But pally as MT... I have yet to see a pally make a better MT than a warrior. Not saying it cant happen, I just have not seen it... ever, only from one reason. Their utter lack of DPS.
Now while typing this I linked it to my brother on yahoo. Here is a copy and paste from which he wanted me to add to my reply.
"Warriors can, do and will out DPS any pally. Warrior migitation ( innate ) + discs overbalance paladin stuns / heals. With warrior discs, provides there are no mezzed mob's near, a warrior's snap aggro is much better than a paladins. I've never lost to a pally, even one with better gear and higher level. ~~ Aretemis Natanuaaq, Marshell of Stromm."
While I have to say pallies do in fact have their uses, it utterly disgusts me when a pally wants to be main tank. They can get snap agro from puller sure, but overall cant hold it anywhere near as much as a warrior. Their DPS severely lacks to that of the gimpest 70 warrior I have yet seen even if pally is Time geared and warrior only has gimp named OoW gear.
Here has been my observations as a mage in a group with a warrior as tank. Warrior's out DPS's pallies. I have not seen an exception yet, tho I am sure one day I might. More DPS = mobs go down quicker and healers have more mana.
Pulls can continue at a higher rate therefor getting us more XP. Their (Pally) lack of DPS means additional group DPS needs to come into play, sometimes very much so that the group runs out of mana both on healers side and casting DPS greatly slowing the amount of XP gotten.
With their inability to have sustained agro, only snap agro. a lot of casters die with a pally as main tank. Given I reduce my DPS with a pally tanking as I know their DPS lacks, so that is not too much of a problem for me, but is for many other casters I have seen. So therefor me reducing my DPS means less XP for the group as mage DPS is very high when you tandem our pets (I had my pet parsed... out DPS'ed many pallies at lvl 70 for the person running the parse.) But still, slower kills is less XP, and me reducing my DPS meant the cleric was spending a lot more mana.
Now do not get me wrong, when a pally is in group as well as a warrior, it makes for a very good group, if the pally sticks to his job in the proper order on which I said at the beginning, kills are fast, cleric has mana, I have mana, lotsa pulls can be brought in meaning more XP :). But pally as MT... I have yet to see a pally make a better MT than a warrior. Not saying it cant happen, I just have not seen it... ever, only from one reason. Their utter lack of DPS.
Now while typing this I linked it to my brother on yahoo. Here is a copy and paste from which he wanted me to add to my reply.
"Warriors can, do and will out DPS any pally. Warrior migitation ( innate ) + discs overbalance paladin stuns / heals. With warrior discs, provides there are no mezzed mob's near, a warrior's snap aggro is much better than a paladins. I've never lost to a pally, even one with better gear and higher level. ~~ Aretemis Natanuaaq, Marshell of Stromm."
Dedarye
75 Mage - Tunare
75 Mage - Tunare
Bahh, hate my typing and use of wordings while tired and wired on coffee. You all can make the best of my typing above to your creative imagination.
Dedarye
75 Mage - Tunare
75 Mage - Tunare
Quote:
While I have to say pallies do in fact have their uses, it utterly disgusts me when a pally wants to be main tank. They can get snap agro from puller sure, but overall cant hold it anywhere near as much as a warrior. Their DPS severely lacks to that of the gimpest 70 warrior I have yet seen even if pally is Time geared and warrior only has gimp named OoW gear.
While Our DPS lacks behind a warriors, we do NOT have inferior aggro abilities. Not by a long shot. Only time a warrior out aggros us is on really LONG fights, which you are only going to see against raid named, which will be tanked by warriors anyway. If a paladin can't hold aggro better than a warrior, said paladin is either SEVERLY underequipped, or doesn't know how to play their toon. Every warrior Ive talked to free admits they cant hold aggro against equivlent geared pallies if the pally wants aggro. Period.
Quote:
Warriors can, do and will out DPS any pally. Warrior migitation ( innate ) + discs overbalance paladin stuns / heals. With warrior discs, provides there are no mezzed mob's near, a warrior's snap aggro is much better than a paladins.
Not likely.
Hrmm.... spell casting subtlety 3 makes this a little hard to test. But after your post I had to try it it just to verify. In either case we had a bard pull for minimum pull agro.
Test 1. Nuke on incoming so that nuke lands when mob is about 16 HIE steps away from tank and the chain nuke 4 nukes after tank engages for 4 seconds.
Warrior = Able to get mob agro off of me instantly on INC never failed. While continuing to chain nuke I would get agro, but after popping a disc warrior agro was restablished to warrior.
I died 4 times on this method after 30 pulls.
Pally = Able to get agro off me 63% of the time (19 pulls out of 30). Continuing the 4 chain nuke after tank engages, the pally was not able to restablish agro too often without me dying. I died a total of 23 times. Might have been all 30, but then I had a chanter replace the rogue to cast runes on me while pally restablished agro. That method kept me alive for the last 7 'tests'.
In either case I did not run away from the mob, I stayed put close to the tank do that their DPS can restablish agro. As myself and the group witnessed warrior agro > pally by a long shot. The DPS was not questioned.... warrior again > pally.
Test 2 conducted today.
I would not nuke on INC, instead I would let the tank engage the mob for 12 seconds before I do my nuking. The nuking was consisted of 5 chain nukes.
Warrior was able to sustain agro on the first 4 nukes, never failed. The 5th nuke was split right down the middle. 15 times he could hold agro, 15 others he could not. In either case I did not die, by the time the 5th nuke got off the mob would die or was trying to run away from low health.
Pally was a coin toss on the 4th nuke, 50% right doen the middle again. 5th nuke pally was unable to reestablish agro no matter what. From a pallies lack of DPS, I died 12 times doing this as I still had mad agro and the mob was mostly not low enough on health to run away.
Testing still shows warrior DPS is undisputed between the two. Warrior was undisputed king. As for agro... again they are better. Both in obtaining it, and definately has a edge on holding it. All this testing was done at the projection of body (weaponry trial guy) in MPG where all mobs are lvl 70.
Now given I do not do that in groups all the time. I just had to test pally agro holding as you think it is better. Maybe if the pally were GoD geared instead of PoP geared... it might have been tied. Warrior was using that trash living blade spear from DoN merchants while the pally was using Vazazir something dispair from Time. Both were equally hasted. Warrior had the belt from the war in GFay while Pally had the MPG trial one... so one being more hasted than the other is no a condideration. There might have been other factors as to why. But it has always been my observation that warriors get/hold agro better than pallies. Pallies are undoubably good at it, but they must bow to the superior capabilities on this matter to a warrior.
As for DPS... even in the AA's maxxed for offensive, it is said in there that a warrior will be better at it.
Keep in mind, I do like pallies in my group, when they do their job in order as said in my first post for this. Or when a warrior in the group simply is not available then they can tank. XP will come slower with a pally as main tank, but it still will come, you cant argue with that
Now that I lost a boatload of XP running these two test for something experienced players already know... now it is back to the game to regain that which I have lost in more conventional methods... well now that I got a better idea on when and when I can not nuke in MPG on pulling... the XP should come by faster with more DPS
Test 1. Nuke on incoming so that nuke lands when mob is about 16 HIE steps away from tank and the chain nuke 4 nukes after tank engages for 4 seconds.
Warrior = Able to get mob agro off of me instantly on INC never failed. While continuing to chain nuke I would get agro, but after popping a disc warrior agro was restablished to warrior.
I died 4 times on this method after 30 pulls.
Pally = Able to get agro off me 63% of the time (19 pulls out of 30). Continuing the 4 chain nuke after tank engages, the pally was not able to restablish agro too often without me dying. I died a total of 23 times. Might have been all 30, but then I had a chanter replace the rogue to cast runes on me while pally restablished agro. That method kept me alive for the last 7 'tests'.
In either case I did not run away from the mob, I stayed put close to the tank do that their DPS can restablish agro. As myself and the group witnessed warrior agro > pally by a long shot. The DPS was not questioned.... warrior again > pally.
Test 2 conducted today.
I would not nuke on INC, instead I would let the tank engage the mob for 12 seconds before I do my nuking. The nuking was consisted of 5 chain nukes.
Warrior was able to sustain agro on the first 4 nukes, never failed. The 5th nuke was split right down the middle. 15 times he could hold agro, 15 others he could not. In either case I did not die, by the time the 5th nuke got off the mob would die or was trying to run away from low health.
Pally was a coin toss on the 4th nuke, 50% right doen the middle again. 5th nuke pally was unable to reestablish agro no matter what. From a pallies lack of DPS, I died 12 times doing this as I still had mad agro and the mob was mostly not low enough on health to run away.
Testing still shows warrior DPS is undisputed between the two. Warrior was undisputed king. As for agro... again they are better. Both in obtaining it, and definately has a edge on holding it. All this testing was done at the projection of body (weaponry trial guy) in MPG where all mobs are lvl 70.
Now given I do not do that in groups all the time. I just had to test pally agro holding as you think it is better. Maybe if the pally were GoD geared instead of PoP geared... it might have been tied. Warrior was using that trash living blade spear from DoN merchants while the pally was using Vazazir something dispair from Time. Both were equally hasted. Warrior had the belt from the war in GFay while Pally had the MPG trial one... so one being more hasted than the other is no a condideration. There might have been other factors as to why. But it has always been my observation that warriors get/hold agro better than pallies. Pallies are undoubably good at it, but they must bow to the superior capabilities on this matter to a warrior.
As for DPS... even in the AA's maxxed for offensive, it is said in there that a warrior will be better at it.
Keep in mind, I do like pallies in my group, when they do their job in order as said in my first post for this. Or when a warrior in the group simply is not available then they can tank. XP will come slower with a pally as main tank, but it still will come, you cant argue with that
Now that I lost a boatload of XP running these two test for something experienced players already know... now it is back to the game to regain that which I have lost in more conventional methods... well now that I got a better idea on when and when I can not nuke in MPG on pulling... the XP should come by faster with more DPS
Dedarye
75 Mage - Tunare
75 Mage - Tunare
What was the pally doing as far as stuns? What were both doing as far as taunts? What was the AA/level status of all involved? Total gear?
Your post means almost nothing because there are too many varibles that you have not considered.
Fact: The vast majorities of parses done show that Knights have the advantage. Warrios have NOTHING that compares to stuns doing 1300 hate. SKs have similar hate tools to paladins. You have yet to prove a thing, especially given ou\\how much evidence is out there to the contrary.
Your post means almost nothing because there are too many varibles that you have not considered.
Fact: The vast majorities of parses done show that Knights have the advantage. Warrios have NOTHING that compares to stuns doing 1300 hate. SKs have similar hate tools to paladins. You have yet to prove a thing, especially given ou\\how much evidence is out there to the contrary.
lol, can anyone tell me the purpose of this thread?
Warrior's are built with the best survivability vs really hard mobs. Put them by themselves, and they dont last for long. Sooo, good side, bad side. What does DPS have to do with it?
Hate generation is related to DPS output, but that doesnt seem to be the point of this thread. If you want DPS, roll a damage and not a Tank class.
Man, all the good flame posts seem to be by passing the SK boards. Come on, some body post something stupid there. Pleeaaasse?
Warrior's are built with the best survivability vs really hard mobs. Put them by themselves, and they dont last for long. Sooo, good side, bad side. What does DPS have to do with it?
Hate generation is related to DPS output, but that doesnt seem to be the point of this thread. If you want DPS, roll a damage and not a Tank class.
Man, all the good flame posts seem to be by passing the SK boards. Come on, some body post something stupid there. Pleeaaasse?
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