The Sleeper is Awakened

The Guild Conquest awakened the Sleeper for the first time and promptly got banned for doing it. Verant claims they did it by using an exploit. I'll leave it up to you to debate whether or not that is what happened. Here's the explanation they posted on their website: We were fighting the 4th warder (ventani) and had it down to 60% or so when kerafyrm spawned, and wiped us out. Kerafyrm then killed the 4th warder. Roughly 15 minutes laster, GM Valdelmar comes in and has this to say. [Tue Jun 05 00:37:10 2001] Valdelmar shouts, 'Everyone that is in this zone, has a corpse in this zone, or was involved in the invasion of this zone is receiving a warning for Exploitation.' Now this is where it gets good. When asked what exactly we exploited, here was the answer: [Tue Jun 05 00:44:50 2001] Valdelmar tells you, 'We witnessed your clerics below the bridge keeping the warders agro by complete heal so that the tanks could safely kill. That's exploitation' Now, anyone who plays the high EQ game or has a reasonable knowledge of EQ game dynamics knows that this completly IMPOSSIBLE to exploit. The mobs summon ability negates this exploit 100%. If the clerics are top on aggro list, they get summoned up from below the bridge, and killed nearly instantly. The mob was on ME (the warrior) the entire battle, besides when it decided it was mad at my clerics - which is when it killed them in no time flat. The full story, with screenshots, is at this link.

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Anyone read the EULA??
# Aug 24 2002 at 4:23 PM Rating: Default
Well if you bothered to read it then you would know it states clearly exploiting a bug is not allowed and can result in suspension/termination of your account. You agree to this everytime you load the software. You agree to this again everytime you hit the accept button after the software is loaded. If YOU can't follow the rules laid before YOU its YOUR own fault so stop blaming Verant for YOUR own problem that YOU created by not reading/following the License Agreement YOU agreed too.
RE: Anyone read the EULA??
# Sep 03 2002 at 8:04 PM Rating: Default
yeah you sound just like you work at Verant and if your Noob a$$ could comprehend that placing casters under a bridge to keep AoE off is a bug, then why is everytime you go on your little naggy raid can you get away with standing under his belly thats a so called (bug) you stupid f*cking Idiot this is why the world is in termoil everyone thinks they know whats best rather than looking at problem from all angles. ohh and just for the referance i beat your just mad about me finding out that you guys really do spank off all day. P

Gettin Rappedaily
LVL 60 Prisoner of Verant
Verant smells like arse!
# Jun 25 2002 at 7:22 AM Rating: Default
Dude! It all makes sense! Verant made the Sleeper, the hardest boss, they didn't want the Sleeper to be defeated so quickly after they made it! So instead they totally deny you guys that you guys killed the Sleeper fair and square and they don't like to be defeated by a toughie guild, so they just ban the guild, make up some bul**it exploit and its all over, The End For Us, They Win! Shall Osama bomb the sh*t out of them! Why world trade center the good place, Verant the bad is what you're aimin for!
Down with the BIG V
# May 26 2002 at 3:25 AM Rating: Default
Damn that was a little much huh?
Ohh well those Bastard's deserve it


Getting Rapeddaly
LVL 60 Prisoner of Verant
Down with the BIG V
# May 26 2002 at 3:16 AM Rating: Default
Here it is People Verant and all there little GM'S sit back and watch us sqwirm in a large room and get there jollys off. Pesonaly i think we should all just bend Verant over like the little Bit*h's they are and Gang Bang the hell out of there arse's and get our 10 dollars a month back.
Constantly telling us this bullsh*t about how this doesn't work and that is broke FACE IT u fu*ked up boys Fix the damn game and stop blaming the player's for your mistake's. If the Sleeper can be killed more power to who ever does it, I just don't see why they make a Mob in the game if they dont want us to kill it, It's like giving me a gun to shoot your little faget ass'es and no bullets. Better yet give me a good T-staff and ill beat the sh*t out of u like your daddy did then stick it up your ass like u do us with this thats cheating this that Blah Blah Blah let me catch your ass out ill show a ass beating like your stupid mobs give us reach around and Bitch smack u from behind a wall. It's a fact these guys sit around all day watching us @#%^ up and then give us hell about it between the designated Spanking off time of the day when they all take a break and beat the old Slime coated Harpoon (you know what i'm talking about). It's all a conspiracy for them to get there fun watching ppl trying to play a @#%^ed up game that is completly impossible to beat,and every time someone comes close the call it cheating and blame it on a glitch in there crappy program HERE IT IS U @#%^ED UP VERANT NOT US FIX IT AND LEAVE US ALONE!!!!!
Verant
# Apr 23 2002 at 10:29 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
60 posts
Verant created a great game but sometimes they miss the boat. The beautiful thing about an online game versus an RPG game is that there is no debate about the rules or the intent of the rules. The game either permits it or it doesn’t permit it. There is no such thing as an exploit and Verant is being lazy and/or foolish.

Everything in the game is an exploit. I try to get my charisma up so that I can exploit more money from vendors. I try to get better weapons so that I can exploit more MOBs.

If there is a problem with the game and players can exploit in ways that are not intended, fix the game.
geforce 4 video cards?
# Apr 15 2002 at 9:09 PM Rating: Default
i heard from a little bird that sony is also making a deal with nvida ,just as they did with intel and p4s ,has anyone got any info about if its worth the investment
What a load!
# Apr 07 2002 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
4 posts
The bottom line is that if it is allowed by the software, then it's fair. If Verant doesn't want it done that way then they should "fix" the software.

However, I'm not suprised, I've been very unstatisfied with the level of support the GM's provide. Especially for problems caused by glitchy software (Anyone ever had the server crash while you were on the boat? My friend did.)
bs
# Mar 18 2002 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
21 posts
This is bull i mean all they did was make a strategy..andf aparently it was a smarter1 than the gm's thought of so they got pissed...seems to me the screw up all the time w/pathing errors mobs hitin u thru wall and then disaperin only to beat u down 10 min later when your afk...said it once ill say it agian ...this is what happens when u give nerd's power!!!!
Sleeper
# Feb 20 2002 at 5:11 PM Rating: Default
Hmmm exploits ?? For those of you who played RP
games for quite awhile you remember such silliness
as rules that wprked out so that going by them a
PC could carry more than a horse and go farther
or just where did u carry that 10 foot pole you
are using to check the ceiling?? How are you
fighting and carrying a heavy crossbow and a 50"
coil of rope and using a 2 hand sword at the same
time?? anyways verant appears to be full of people
in dire need of some counseling. The game was always about having fun that was the point if things looked bad for the party a good GM worked it out somehow and the party lived to fight another day if the GM was a @#%^wipe and killed you all time and again yo told them to piss off and left them sitting at an empty table looking
at their books and dice) So VI smarten the @#%^ up
you bunch of self absorbed control freaks we are paying customers or you will find yourselves sitting with a beautiful adventure world that no one wants to play in. No i never used an NPC to go
take a look in the cave around the corner or open
a closed container try a potion on touch the shiny red button P if you beleive that I got a bunch of stuff i wanna sell you in EC ) Cheers at
conquest exploit or not I was not there cant say
When mobs take fall and drowning damage then we can talk about player abuses of sh*tty programming
IMNHO If you killed something its dead you win
and in all my time on this earth i have never seen
anything outside of a sporting event that resembled a "fair fight" the object is to leave the enemy dead or incapicitated not follow some @#%^ing silly rules> anyways its late am tired and kindly forgive the punctuation and spelling errors hookd on fonix owes me a refund


test
# Jan 18 2002 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
o
Relax . . . .
# Dec 04 2001 at 1:35 PM Rating: Default
The inception of EQ was years ago, and up until then internet gaming was in an "infintile" stage. Verant did what nobody else could do at the time, which is make a completly evolving, living world in which to emerse ourselves in. I challenge any of you do accomplish such a task. And when you do, I hope your endevours are as successful as Verant's. 350,000 ppl (est) are currently subscribed. Did Verant ever plan for such success? Doubt it! Sooner or later there's gonna be problems. And you guys flame Verant. Try calling Nintendo to fix the bug that let's Mario jump on the same turtle shell and get 200 extra lives. You'll get put on hold for the rest of your life. Let Verant go.....at least they designed a game that is fixable.....








Caelestes Dashiznit
50th Wizard of Raised by Prophecy
Drinal
VERANT SUCKS
# Oct 20 2001 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
It shows how verant wants to control the game, NOT FUN ANYMORE. You might want to come to DAOC, I have a lvl 60 necro on eq, heh, willing to give that up to play with a game that has some sincere and caring people developing it. It shows here that Verant is a control fanatic. Common sense tells you that if the clerics are healing and the warriors are doing the damage, then they have the highest aggro. However, it also shows that the ones that were doing this actually had a strategy in making this happen. I salute the people that came up with a strategy to overcome this. As for Verant, you will lose more and more people every day. Just keep this bs up and I can see you losing even faster. I personally will enjoy your downfall. I might even "..ss on your grave. Enjoy fellow questers, may you make verant fall into the abyss
what VI wants
# Sep 06 2001 at 10:28 PM Rating: Decent
20 posts
maybe they want just 80 warriors and 80 clerics to beat it up.
It's Broke so fix it
# Aug 29 2001 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
21 posts
If what is posted is correct then VI need to address the geometry issue, I myself have experienced such things, standing up stairs in the tower on the bridge in N Karana that leads to S Karana, getting hit by mobs that are on the ground floor and spinning round thinking "what the hell is hitting me", but thats ok to VI, but we do the same and level the playing field and you get banned?. Sorry but that is just not fair.
If Verant know of bugs, bugs which have been in place for a LONG time then they should shut up whining, either fix it or forget it, but dont blame players for the games faults. On closing I wonder how many programmers verant sacked for these bugs getting through and allowing them to remain in game? less or more than the players they banned??

Avindral Soulblade
Paladin 35 Summers
Lan'ys

Full support to Conquest exploiting or not
No suprise here
# Aug 07 2001 at 11:53 PM Rating: Default
Heh, as an enchanter I can vouch that just about any 50+ mobs (besides a few exeptions like in PoM) will summon you if on top of aggro list. Verant is up to their bullshi.t (oops, did I add a period in there) as usual.



"Verants solution to the problem; nerf it to hell!"

"I still agree that the biggest taunt in the game is an enchanter sittin down."

Kaizel Mezzaire
50th Enchanter of Zebuxoruk

Moulin Rouge (10 bucks Verant will get on me about my name for that, but while their motto is nerf it, my motto is get around it. "Excuse me but moulin rouge means Red Windmill in french, if it is any way relating to this 'show' your talking about it's purely coincidental")
23rd Bard of Zebuxoruk
Hmmmmm.
# Aug 23 2001 at 2:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Sacrificial Lamb
*****
16,110 posts
It would seem that Verant was upset that their supermonster was defeated a bit more easily than they wished for it to be. In a huff they arbitrarily decided to whack everyone involved in the action. Kinda like a kid who doesn't like the way a game is going and so he tells everyone he is taking his ball and going home.
Poor sports...

--Pusbag Infection, King and High Priest of the Trolls
____________________________
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Winner of Last(tm) VIII!

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"Totem is the personification of whiskey soaked evil" --Annabelle

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tactics now bannable?
# Jul 28 2001 at 5:19 AM Rating: Good
Well, seeying as how appherently everyday tactics are now bannable, ill bet verant will be making alot of changes. Can't use taunt anymore, seeying as how that exploits the monsters right to kill your casters and then your party. No more healing spells, that exploits game rules by giving back HPs the monster rightfully took away. I mean that is a bit exagerated, but going by what ive read at the conquest site soon all druids will be banned for kiting.
OMG!
# Jul 23 2001 at 10:23 PM Rating: Default
FKing mobs can hit through walls, ceilings... you name it, cast spells from other side of the zone on you! and when players play thier game they get banned????? WTF!!!!!!
HAHA
# Jul 23 2001 at 10:20 PM Rating: Default
For me there is no such thing as a *game exploit* it is nothing more than a poor game design. Players using something that V don't bother to fix and get banned? that's a piece of crap. Everyone know that the Z-axis doesn't work properly in EQ, you can /corpse bodies from below standing high above...blah blah... V knows it well, do they bother to fix it? HELL NO! They are too busy nerfing everything that DOES work properly. This is crap.
what i heard
# Jul 20 2001 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
I heard that Verant was not finished with the zone and what would happen if all the warders were killed but put it out to just fix it later ....if this is so then they probably needed more time to fix the area and shouls have kept people locked out of the zone ...anyhow If they had let them wake the Sleeper themselves they would have died anyways.

PS I like the idea of a Mob that you cant kill

47 newbie monk on Inno server
motive?
# Jul 11 2001 at 12:26 AM Rating: Good
*
59 posts
first of all, i don't know anybody in conquest or anybody at verant/sony, and i've only been playing since december (though i know people who've played since the beginning). from a distance, this looks a lot like two wrongs not making a right.

sounds like conquest was taking advantage of a bug or two, and the response from verant was excessive. now, anybody who has ever had a beef with verant or sony is screaming about "the evil corporate monster".

the z coordinate bug is something many of us have experienced in various zones, but usually it's the mob that exploits it (as a newbie in misty thicket, i stood on top of a tower and was attacked by a bixie who was below me on the ground, untouchable to me). if conquest figured out how to make it work in their favor, good for them. but it is exploiting a bug. as for the land/water bug, again if conquest figured out a way to attack from one into the other without getting hit back, good for them. but it is exploiting a bug. (it's not the same as fleeing the water to escape death, it's more like fishing with dynamite...very unsportsmanlike).

on conquest's behalf, the GM could easily have stepped in and warned them that they were breaking the rules instead of watching silently and accumulating evidence in order to ban players.

but a query to all the conspiracy theorists who beleive that "verant doesn't want it's game beaten": please explain the motive.

would any of us have stopped playing (and paying) when we heard the sleeper had been beaten? doubtful. everyone in the game cheers when an unconquered mob gets conquered (though i suppose there is some jealousy between the super-guilds). why would they risk all the negative feedback they knew they would have to endure? so a couple of programmers can boast about the "unbeatable Everquest"? not likely.

why would they spend money to pay programmers to put features into a game and then not want anyone to see them?

we all love to hate the faceless corporate giant, but in this case, what is the motive for this "evil"?

imho,
nimbledigits

ps everyone who is of the "well, verant allowed the bug to be in the game, so it's their own fault" are missing the point entirely. the rules state that exploiting a bug can result in banning. end of story.
____________________________
Nimbledigits Throatslitter
Leatherfoot Raider of the 20th Shadow
Mith Marr
Exploitation
# Jun 12 2001 at 1:01 PM Rating: Excellent
To make money in this world, you need a gimmick. Also, you need to exploit the people who are customers, and/or the people that work for you.

As fun as EQ is, it's a business. By making it take forever to go up in levels or requiring lots of people to do anything, Verant protects its cash flow. Introducing new zones, mobs, items, and quests are all ways to keep players into the game.

Anyone ever see the bumper sticker that reads, "Don't steal, the government hates competition" ? This situation reminds me of that sticker. Verant doesn't want any player exploitation of the game because it undermines their own exploitation.

As a player, I could care less what uber guilds do or what they do first. That does nothing to hamper the "roleplaying" aspect of my game. NPCs that give the same responses over and over again and mobs that "exploit" their ability to hit me from the ceiling and floor without my being able to hit back do more to lessen my enjoyment of the "roleplaying" aspect of the game. The same with broken spawns. Yet there is no one to ban when the game works badly or when there are server issues that lead to frequent disconnects for many customers.

The members of Conquest are paying customers. They should be thanked for finding the bug and offered jobs as testers. Verant has no one to blame but themselves for this fiasco. If the zone was so drastically bugged in a way that such major mobs could be killed with relative ease, then the zone should not have been released. If the main reason Conquest was doing this was for their own ego, then it's Verant's own doing as well. They made the game geared towards rewarding uber guilds. And most uber guilds are bound to get uber greedy and uber arrogant. (Aren't most large corporations this way? *cough* Sony *cough*)

Since this is a place for opinions, there's mine. As long as I continue to enjoy the game, and am a sucker for this gimmick, I'll keep playing and paying.


To Do! or not to do! that is the question!
# Jun 12 2001 at 10:26 AM Rating: Decent
43 posts
I will say this, if you read your service agreement your one up on me;) But ultimately if you choose one exploit or another, your die has been cast, and you have to live with the outcome. So, to those out there that come upon the choice to take part in an exploit, just remember that that foot from "Monty Pythons Flying Circus" can sure enough, squish ya;) Personally, I would take the time to do things right, and if you die, at least you can say! "hey, you can't ban me! er, but can ya pull my body from the dragons feet!

And now for something completely different!
____________________________
For the Good of the Realms!
Leave EQ...WHY?
# Jun 11 2001 at 9:42 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
All I can say is this. You are unhappy...LEAVE. Although I agree with some of your statements...to say that they "control" our lives is NUTS! This is a game...and unless YOU WERE THERE...you can only guess what REALLY happened. Unless you have tried similiar tactics yourself. Do you really think that the END ALL of MOBS should be defeatable? WHY? There needs to be that unspeakable evil...the thing that parents all over Norrath tell there kids about to keep them from being bad little boys and girls.

I think you guys have seen CONSPIRACY THEORY a few too many times.

Oh...and just another quick question...why all the anon's?!?!? Hmmm.....make a statement...stand behind it...

GJAKAR SELORNE
Paladin of 23 seasons
Leave EQ...WHY?
# Jun 11 2001 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
/rude verant
# Jun 10 2001 at 10:53 AM Rating: Default
its such a shame that verant can claim outright lies like that to be true. here is a list of possible things that may have occured that day:
1. Verant gets scared when conquest is threatening to kill the 4th warder and spawn the sleeper because the zone is not yet finished and their program is buggy, so they spawn kerafym(human model, so obviously their program IS buggy) right there to wipe out conquest and the warder....obviously not an appropriate way to handle the situation on verant's part
2.When the 4th warder gets down to 60%, it spawns kerafym, and verant had him beefed up to be unkillable while they are attempting to fix the coding in sleeper's tome...when people start taking screenshots of the "sleeper" being a human model, which is obviously messed up and proves the zone is not completely finished, they come in and make claims about conquest using exploits to kill the warder and start banning them so that as few people as possible will learn of the warder(this didn't work apparently, because the contraversy has made many people go to conquest's boards and see the screenshots)
3.Conquest actually did 'sploit(which is very unlikely, seeing as how it is IMPOSSIBLE to nullify a mob's ability to summon, and it is not likely that you could find a certain spot where you could stand there and a mob could not hit you.)
well, thats just what i put together from the facts i have heard about this incident. if anyone from conquest is reading this, i feel really sorry for ya and you guys must rock if you have the force to get the 4th warder down to even 60% i hope you guys are able to prove that verant was lying and that you will have success in the future. =)
p.s. verant blows goats

EVERYONE QUIT< NOW
# Jun 10 2001 at 6:25 AM Rating: Default
Everyone should quit, go find another game to play.

For the luv of god people, they have been in control of lives for way to long......
This just in from Conquest's site
# Jun 10 2001 at 2:37 AM Rating: Good
Yes folks, this is the official statement from VI.

It is also an embarrasment to the company in which it is attributed to. Never have I seen a VI calaber company act in such an unprofessional way as to take our guildchat COMPLETLY out of context, and at the same time have it filled with OUTRIGHT UNDENIABLE LIES.

Lets take a look, shall we...

basically the 28 Conquest players were (among other things) purposely using world geometry, aspects of the hate list, the "z" coordinate and its nullification of NPC's ability to summon, and multiple atmospheres (e.g. water/land) to arrange dragon-type encounters so they could attack without getting hit back for the vast majority of the time that it took to kill the monster.

This is just an outright lie, period. EASILY proveable with the testimony of hundreds of everquest players who have killed the warders, and many other everquest mobs. YOU CANNOT EVER nullify the npcs summon ability - it is simply impossible. Hell, even VI employee's who play the high level game can vouch for that.

And to top it all off, we never even came CLOSE to killing the monster. The mob was down to 65% at most when we lost (yes we LOST the fight badly - VI decided it was wise to spawn kerafyrm anyways to kill the last few of us off - thus triggering their entire script)

In addition, SOE staff observed various members of the guild discussing the cheating -- these comments include:

...


These lines are totally taken out of context. They were NEVER in reference to the exploit you are describing (which isnt even possible to execute - you can even ask various co-workers like narris, kendrick, etc - you know, the guys who have a CLUE how the game works). These guildchat lines are in reference to useing rez effects to prevent the slow spell from stacking. The SAME tactic EVERY guild who killed yelinak used (casting clarity to overwrite yelinaks AE), the SAME tactic every guild who fought aaryanar used (lots of spells overwrote his AE), and the SAME tactic every guild who killed the 3rd warder used (useing snare so its AE wouldnt take hold). The statements were made IN JEST, because useing this border-line exploit is about as illegal as jaywalking. Verant watches people use these tactics EVERY DAY and doesnt even care - not to mention this isnt what we have been charged with doing.

Give me 8 hours of guildchat of ANY high end guild, and ill cut and paste you a reason to disband them.

As far as the guild being disbanded, the rules state:

Disciplinary issues involving guilds will also be addressed on a broader basis. Guilds whose members habitually violate any of the Rules of Conduct . . . may be disbanded.

How is ONE INCIDENT habitually violating the rules of conduct?

The last paragraph is particularly embarrasing to your company...

(i) Conquest did not complete the encounter &#8211; SOE staff inadvertently spawned the Sleeper during its efforts to stop the cheating

SOE staff spawned the sleeper due to their superiority complex... They could have very easily killed the CQ members with death touch. Spawning a lvl 99 mob that quads 1950 and death touches, that is KOS to anything and everything (even the npcs in teh zone) AND that sets off serverwide scripts is SURELY not the handbook procedure for killing off a dozen people who are allready LOSING BADLY to the mob you claim they are exploiting.

ii) the &#8220;human figures&#8221; in some screenshots are a result of the screenshot taker not patching

How can you feel comfortable spreading such blatent lies? Perhaps you should view this screenshot which shows both the human kerafyrm model AND the sleeper model in the same shot.

http://eqconquest.inet.net.nz/sleepers/sleeper01.jpg

DOH, didnt think we had one of those i bet.

(iii) the zone is complete and working -- once SOE has patched fixes to these exploits we encourage players to wake the Sleeper.

Not really. The script is worse shape then ever before.

Patched fixes to the exploits eh? All you've patched is upgrading the 3rd warders AE to make it COMPLETLY impossible, so noone will EVER complete your unfinished zone.

New 3rd warder AE (get this)

7500 dot over 1.5 mins
15 second stun
12 second reset
Whirl till you hurl (makes the player spin)

Needless to say, 3rd warder will never die in this form.

BTW you screwed up veeshans peak by changing the 3rd warder's ae - Nexona shares that spell. May want to patch that.

-Tiak
complete bs
# Jun 08 2001 at 7:48 PM Rating: Default
my mistake...the number of people logged does in fact go down in the wee hours of the morning, but still with roughly 300,000-350,000 members all paying $10 a month..thats about 3 million dollars a month .... <b>3-3.5 MILLION DOLLARS A MONTH</b>(not including the initial cost)...just think about that when everyone gets tired of wasting their lives sitting in front of a pc slashing some bug ridden pixelized dragon. do not take your aggressions out on your customers, fix your broken game
Bug?
# Jun 08 2001 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
This story has this newbie scared that I'm exploiting all the time and unaware of it! It seems like they are saying that if there are game designs that I utilize to protect me from certain death than I am actually "exploiting a bug". Does this mean that if I run to the zone when a MOB is in pursuit (thereby "exploiting" the game design that prevents MOBs from crossing zones) that I am actually doing something wrong?! I don't think it is good role playing to not try to save your hide when you are under attack by whatever means available!
complete bs
# Jun 08 2001 at 7:14 PM Rating: Default
$10 a month to play a game...if they have bugs that can be exploited then they need to fix them...not punish their customers..looking at their what 15 or so servers with aprox 2000 or so people logged in constantly...do the math...were they exploiting? i have no clue nor do i care, but they all payed their dues to enter a zone and find nothing but clearly unthoughtout code....fix your game
Why
# Jun 08 2001 at 11:11 AM Rating: Default
Verant never ever repeats to the public what was being done that got someone suspended, because they cannot watch everyone all the time and others will use the same bug/exploit. Therefore, disregard any reasons Verant lists as to why Conquest got into trouble. What Verant is not saying is this:

1. When you get ressed, your hit point total goes to 1500 "whether it was higher or lower".
2. Rez boxes stay up for several minutes, if you don't access your spellbook, etc.
3. Rezzing someone does not make you agro like healing does.
4. A corpse can be ressed multiple times, although only the first one restores experience.
5. The 4th warder has an AE slow that also does a relatively small amount of damage.
6. Tanks, other than the main-trying-to-stay-agro one, drop corpses. Cleric with FA resses them, but they do not click on the box. Tanks fight, get AE damage, click box when a heal is needed. Cleric re-resses, rinse and repeat.
7. Using the FA res as an instant, no-agro, anytime heal is an EXPLOIT.
8. End of discussion.
Good Role-playing...
# Jun 07 2001 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
I must say that although I do not know all the facts of this event, it does sounds as if they were using a tactic that they KNEW would limit the mobs ability to fight back. It just sounds unfair to use a known bug to prevent a mob from hitting you JUST so you can claim that your guild was the first PROVEN group to complete the kill.

I feel that this is NOT just a hack and slash type game...it is a ROLE PLAYING GAME. And as such, this type of behavior takes a GREAT DEAL away from the realism of the game for everyone else. Sure, I have to admit, that I would LOVE to claim that I was the one that killed this mob, but I would NEVER want to do it using a strategy that includes using a known bug in my favor. Verant should have fixed this problem yes, but it was not and therefore....should not have been used to benefit the guild.

Besides...how many people even try this? Wouldnt Verant's time and resources be put to better use by developing new realeases and dealing with bugs that effect a larger portion of the player base? I am sorry but since I know I wont be going to this zone any time soon...I feel that it's more important to asure the majorities ability to play the game the way it should be played..using fair and honest role playing.

This is just an opinion that I have. One that I am sure is not viewed as the popular one but still...it is my opinion.

Perhaps instead of a complete banning...Verant should ban them from the zone and knock all of them down a specified amount of levels( say 10-15) and put them on probation. Just a thought...
One sided...
# Jun 07 2001 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
I'm going to be called a mouthpeice for this, but her I am writing a second post. A few other posters have said they read all the info, or have been following the story, ... blah blah blah!

Here's a question for you, if you've read all the info, what do SOE's logs say about what happened? How long were the GM's there watching without being seen? Are you a member of either SOE or Conquest?

You HAVEN'T seen all the info. You HAVE seen Conquests very one sided (and I understand why) version of the events as they occurred. You may have read the short statement SOE put out to address the issue. But you have not read/seen ALL the info.

It's bad business to publicly talk about things of this nature. SOE gave their statement, and that's it. But being in business they'd have to be colassal idiots to do something like this without cause. And the reasons proposed are not good causes. You really think SONY, you know the company that has more money than God, is going to take bad PR unless they have legitimate and just cause? People, this is a business and you don't make arbitrary decisions in business. Especially if you want to be sucessful. And I think SOE want's to be successful.

That being said, if Conquest was knowingly exploiting bugs in the system, do you think they're going to admit it? I think they were, and you can read my other post to find out why, but they'd be stupid to admit it. They want SOE to look the villian, that's a standard defense tactic.

Unless SOE were to release their logs of the incident, which they won't and nor should they, we'll never know the whole story. But being as Sony wouldn't take the PR hit without reason, I'm inclined to side with them.

PS NO I don't work for SOE.
Maybe...
# Jun 07 2001 at 10:45 AM Rating: Excellent
13 posts
Umm, Conquest's own screenshots kinda imply they were cheating. Here's why I say this, not that it's proof, but just to point out. SOE says that Conquest was using world geometry and the z coordinate to negate the summoning of the Warder. Ok now Conquests says and I quote "The mob was on ME (the warrior) the entire battle".

Two very conflicting stories. But the part that confuses me, is if they weren't using the cleric to keep the MOB aggro'd else where, what does this line, which is in both of the screen shots in the first to statements on conquests web site, mean?

"Itzelgend tells the guild, 'It works/....perfect we just have to keep cleric aggro <mine'"

If they weren't exploiting anything, they why would you want the warder aggro'd onto your cleric. Don't you need him/her for healing/ressurection? Seems to me having him aggro on your cleric is not a smart strategdy. And for Conquest to get to the 4th warder they'd have to be smarter than that wouldn't they.

Now I know this proves nothing, but it makes you wander what they were doing. That is if you think about it and not just react to the mighty evil Verant.
RE: Maybe...
# Jun 18 2001 at 5:12 PM Rating: Default
yeah, look at "cleric aggro <mine". Did you ever go to school past 1st grade!? "<" means "less than", therefore, they had to keep the clerics aggro less than the tank's, which is in NO way any sort of exploit.
RE: Maybe...
# Jun 08 2001 at 1:59 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
42 posts
Scuse me, brainiac...

'It works/....perfect we just have to keep cleric aggro <mine'"


He's saying that he needs more aggro than the cleric. Ya know, the tanks being the tank, instead of the cleric... so the cleric can heal him... geez. Cleric < Mine means MINE = BIGGER. MORE AGGRO FOR THE TANKS
Riiiiight....
# Jun 07 2001 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
18 posts
We are all motivated to try and overcome the challenge of killing the mobs, to prevail through skill and teamwork. Verant seems to take the position that we should be motivated to admit defeat before it occurs, to assume we will be unsuccessful at our goals and thus report any "exploit" if we suddenly discover any success!

For example:
At level 4 I remember jumping into the Freeport water around the pally guild to kill piranha's. They were mean and had sharp teeth, and I almost died. So I jumped out onto land. They didn't follow but stayed in the water, like good fish, glaring at me. I rested and healed, then jumped back in to try again. Was this an exploit? Should my level 4 character have been banned? Suspended? Should I have reported some mysterious bug that allowed me to finally kill a piranha?

Yet at level 60, in a large guild, in the highest end zone available I may get Verant's response of "...basically the 28 Conquest players were (among other things) purposely using world geometry, aspects of the hate list, the "z" coordinate and its nullification of NPC's ability to summon, and multiple atmospheres (e.g. water/land) to arrange dragon-type encounters so they could attack without getting hit back for the vast majority of the time that it took to kill the monster."

Please note the comment about multiple atmospheres, as that addresses my easy level 4 example. Was it wrong for my level 4 char to unwittingly take advantage of a bug in coding that prevented the piranha from attacking me past the water/air layer? Was it even possible that I determined that it was coded like this, a natural and legitimate tactic to use? Couldn't I have concluded that this was just one of the many tactics Verant wanted a player to learn, to improve his battle skills with?

It seems to me that possibly the players in Sleepers were utilizing tactics similar in nature (but obviously not so simple) that they had learned. Tactics that had not been punished when killing Yelinak, etc... so quite possibly had been concluded as legitimate and proper.

Sure, some exploits are obvious cheats, but for the others... at what point is the player supposed to realize that a bug is occuring and must be not exploited but reported? Are we supposed to just assume "well, really we shouldn't ever have any chance at killing this mob... must be an exploit that is allowing us, so let's stop"? Face it, if you are killing a high end mob and that mob DOESNT summon you, you are going to thank your lucky stars and not instead rush to the conclusion that you must be standing in a "magical geometry" spot.

I read the message boards on this, at two different sites. I have to admit Verant's form letter does little to address and assure me, a normal non-uber player, that I will not be discriminated against in the future.

If you find a novel way to accomplish your task you are either (a) innovative, creative, and skilled at playing the EQ game OR (b) exploiting a design flaw to give you "unintended benefits" [from VI's statement defining exploits]. If you find yourself in category (b) you may or may not know it until a GM/guide informs you, usually in the form of a Warning. Unfortunately for you, if you didn't know it was an "unintended benefit" you already have a warning issued against you and the next "unintended benefit" can find you suspended or banned.

"You have now been warned not to use the water/air interface as an exploit in preventing the mobs from hitting you" followed a few levels later by "You have exploited the Deep Water Goblin's inability to hit you with arrows by rooting him and standing behind a tree. You are now permanently banned from playing EQ."
RE: Riiiiight....
# Nov 08 2001 at 1:44 PM Rating: Decent
37 posts
or C) cheating your azz off to be one of the few to say "we spawned the sleeper".

This is nothing new folks, most of us have known about this for sometime. you can get banned for similar tactics in Mistmore AND GM's are often there watching... It's not a bug, VI intended it this way for the mob, look at kedge for an example.

VI has said in the past "you do this, your gone". They gave the warning already so why should they have to do it again and again and again? How many warnings do you need? One should be enough.

We are also not talking about n00b players under level 20. these are high level, experienced players that have been around the block, they know whats right and whats wrong AND knew exactly what they were doing. they got caught. you don't make a raid like this without a plan and expect to have any chance of living. I'd be willing to bet they did this during off hours hoping that no GM would be around to see what they were doing.

It's kinda funny that they claim they wernt cheating. why were the clerics postioned under the bridge? common, VI is not made up of fools and neither am I. It was obvious reading C's own postes what was up.

It's really funny that they are behaving the exact same way my six year old does when I catch him stealing cookies.

AND how is this descrimination? to be caught cheating? my gawd that the funniest thing i've ever heard. You should be a lawer. "your Honor, my client is being descriminated against by going to jail for robbing that bank". "How is this fair? Just because he hacked the vault combination and lied by saying he was a branch VP?". "Common your Honor, he was just being creative, innovative and taking advantage of a security design flaw". LOL, amazing.

Maybe if they stop with all the "hoopla" they will get "unbanned"? Just a thought since it might only be a VI "timeout". Act like an adult and you will be treated like one. act like a child and you will be treated like a child.
Horse Swill!!
# Jun 07 2001 at 9:44 AM Rating: Default
...SOE is committed to protecting the health and viability of the game and of the EverQuest community..

What Viability? The game is a massive multiplayer hack and slash game.. They were hacking and slashing, there was a lot of them, and they were having fun.. How does this hurt the "Viability" of the game?

It really does sound like VI is whining about the fact that people are able to Beat the unbeatable. I Say Tough S^%T Verant, Live with it.. Players will Always be smarter than programmers, it's the nature of the beast.
But instead of rewarding them, you punish them and accuse them of Cheating.

The whole statement with this Coordinate bug, notice that it is Only a BUG when used by the players, when it's the NPC's getting to take advantage of this "bug" it is No Longer called a bug, rather it is called "Design"

IF VI doesn't approve of the Coordinate bug, they should fix it, not ban people for using it.
EXPLIOT?
# Jun 07 2001 at 8:21 AM Rating: Default
I read all the info on this and the banning is very unjustice in my opinion. The under bridge idea i read earlier, if they did actually use it that method is just plain smart playing, they went in figured out how to do and excuted. If verant get pissed because someone figures out a bug, its there problem that they need to fix, and because someone figures out how to beat a basiclly unbeatable mob, they nshould grow up and take it like a man and figure out how to make where somone can't do it again.
bugs
# Jun 07 2001 at 3:11 AM Rating: Decent
12 posts
Even if you posted a bug they still do not do sh*t to fix it unless it is in the players advantage. I was in south karana the other night in the birdhouse in the penthouse when all of a sudden i was knock out of my med.. and killed by three mobs that i could not see or hit or even cast a spell on. Needless to say it happened twice in which VI CS told me no bug is listed in this area and that they will do nothing for me even though i was clear up at the top of the treehouse and the MOBS attacking were clear down on the ground. So i typed /bug and sent it in then i got Banned for 7 days for making a false /bug and that they had no proof of it.. So here i sit all Piss Off at VI for kicking me off of EQ the only game i have wasted money on for two long years and the only game i thought worthy of staying power go to sh*t.. I hope VI get the message that they need to check all their rules and regluations and adjust them too suit..


BOBman of reno,Nv NOW A PROUD MEMBER OF Ultima Online
well
# Jun 07 2001 at 12:00 AM Rating: Default
this sound liek a definate exploit to me what most of you are missing is the fact that the Z coord is ignored in eq meaning the dragon isnt gona summon the clerics cause its right over top of them and it thinks its within hittin distance already. this is what i gathered from reading well just about everythign thats posted about this sh*t lol they have clerics under sum bridge keepin dragon agrro by exploiting the z coord so dragon wont summon... i havent been to sleepers and dont kno the layout of this bridge they speak of and coudl be wrong but this si what it sounded liek to me ...
Yes
# Jun 06 2001 at 6:36 PM Rating: Default
Yes he summoned just fine. Check http://pub49.ezboard.com/bconquesteq
go here
# Jun 06 2001 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
http://eq.castersrealm.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=3559

They have all the info about what is going on about this now.
I Agree!
# Jun 06 2001 at 3:33 PM Rating: Good
1 post
I find it hard to believe that a monster of that level doesn't summon. If the clerics were high enough on it's aggro list they would immediately been summoned and killed. If Verant somehow forgot to install this feature on this particular monster, then shame on them.
____________________________
Xehabu Darkheart
Level 54 DE Necro
Xev Server
dont see valid reason
# Jun 06 2001 at 2:38 PM Rating: Default
well let me get this straight V say u xploited
ok
let ask u this
he summon yes or no if yes then cleric from a distance is irrelevant

did your cleric use complete heal or celestial heal :comp heal = agro ala max xcept if u have done more dmg than the cleric has healed u
cele heal mean heal over time wich results in less agro

yes or no did your grp die as a result of the cleric being summon because they aggroed the mob and died:
if yes then u either did more dmg than cleric healed or they cel heal and took longer to agro the mob wich is normal rigth
\ but if u kill the mob without the cleric being aggroed with little or np at all thn maybe but in that case they should reajust agro factor but then again if u have an enc or any other that can deagro desummon ... then your right agin and some how i tink u had a enc so
verant give us a real reason of xploitation

i would understand if they didnt die or he jsut didnt att them or he ran into a wall and jsut didnt run like in OT fear wall at SF i dont see any grounds for suspension if anything i see grounds for apology
i will not post my name because im not going to rock the boat i sit in

ps i would like your response to this pls i will be following this story
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