Trivial Loot, Trivial Quests

The much maligned Trivial Loot Code which was introduced with the Warrens and included again with the newly released Stonebrunt Mountains has been (and is) the subject of much debate. Absor has been fielding some questions from players on the offical boards, and Casters Realm as a nice little summary here. Now, I don't normally bother to write about EQ game issues (since I'm really not much of a writer), but one sentence caught my eye and made my laugh. Don't get me wrong here, I believe that trivial loot code (if the monster is green to you, you don't get special loot) is a good thing. It gives them more freedom to place good medium calibur looot on mid-level creatures, without the fear that a properly tuned group will fight deep into some dungeon only to discover a level 60 sitting there camping their spawn. The Necklace of Superiority being on the Kly in the Crypt of Dalnir was a good example of this. (No, I don't think it was a bug that he had it, a mistake perhaps, but not a bug). It was compelling loot, a reason to fight through that dungeon, but completely out of place for the level of the dungeon. Level 60's camped the bottom of a dungeon designed for level 30 to 40, and eventually the item was moved over to Drusella Sathir in Charasis. Anyhow, I think trivial loot code is good... ...except when applied to quests. From Absor:
Trivial Loot Code can't be completed by folks that didn't discover the beginnings of the quest in that zone when they were of a level to do so.
And therin lies the issue. Quests are a huge draw to everquest. Since release, they've solved the initial complaints that their quests lacked depth, and gone on to create some truly immersive quests which contribute to the reason the game is so popular. People like doing quests, and many many people enjoy doing them so much, they consider some of the rewards mandatory to the gaming experience. The issue I have with the above statement is the dichotomy of opinion here. The ability to "miss" quests, screw them up, and the time that some of the higher level ones take accounts in large part to this site's popularity. Our quest references are used by many many casual gamers who don't have the time for the penalties involved in missing some steps in quests. The thing is, Verant isn't exacly "fond" of us. Well, some departments are, but certain influences there have made their feelings on us documenting the game known to us. Yet here, they play further into our hands by allowing quests to become incompletable by the simple trick of leveling past a certain point. While I love having a hand in this site, the truth is that I would rather that EQ be designed in such a manner that we weren't considered a "necessary" resource by so much of the player base. (don't get me wrong here, I love that y'all visit the site :) I just think that as a game, they have failed miserably when it comes to providing in-game documentation and relief from silly mistakes. Quests are more than just the item, they represent the story that they tell, and can truly liven up a players gaming experience. While I don't care that I can't take Illia out and farm all the Phat Lewt in that zone, it does bother me that quests can be come un-doable by the simple process of having leveled. Quests are as much a part of the world as zones or NPCs, if not more so, they tell stories of the world and add to the immersiveness of the Norrath. They provide one of the sole reasons for leveling. Locking players out of quests on the basis of being too high a level means that the time-limited player will need to use external game references like this site even more. In order to ensure that they get the gaming experience they want to, they'll need to know how high they can go before needing to go off and complete the quest. While I am impressed that Verant continues to modify the base rules that EQ runs on, I think they've gone too far in this case. Trivial Loot Code on items is good, Trivial Loot Code on quests is bad. I look forward to a game which limits a players ability to experience the whole world solely on the basis of time and resources available. --Illia

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It was a good thing on quests, too
# Dec 30 2020 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
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1,050 posts
Look at something like the Bard epic, where you need dragon scales to finish it. On Firiona Vie, where practically everything is tradeable, the dragons were all being camped 24/7 to farm the scales to sell to players trying to do the epic. You couldn't get a group into those areas and not find a higher level group already there waiting for the next dragon to spawn. That puts you at the mercy of the higher level players to do your epic quest. How is that fair?
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If you were me and I were you, would we still be friends?
Quests
# Sep 12 2001 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
EverQUEST, Verant.

Absolutely, I like the loot code on dropped items. Destroy the uber campers who are just there to twink someone. But loot code on QUESTING?! that's just stupid. If you have made an effort to actually PLAY the game, the game that you put MONEY into, you deserve to have a enriching experience. Verant, please LISTEN. It's going to kill EQ's customer base the second another MMORPG comes out! Look at the talk of all the other games...right next to yours. Everyone is all jazzed up about other games because of how you have limited us. I, as a player, deserve to have a reward for effort I put into something. Yes, reward should be equal to level, for SIMPLE things (i.e. drops). Kill something easy for you? so what. Kill something, carry it across the world, hand it in, take next item to...etc. That's an effort of the preson behind that screen, and deserving of the reward. Please. I enjoy your game, but I swear, if you ***** me like that, I will leave. Believe it or not, I have a life past EQ, and my guildmates agree. Heh. But we can be guildmates in another game...it doesn't hurt to reconsider your opinion when you get new information. Only the stupid or insane don't.

Dump, MT server, 39 SK, 36 druid, 21 necro
...
# Sep 07 2001 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
Now people will be twinking their higher level chars with their lower level chars...this is the the dumbest idea yet, Verant...
Simply Incredible
# Sep 07 2001 at 3:04 PM Rating: Decent
18 posts
I read the Caster's Realm snippet, and considering the posts I made on the Station concerning this very issue (under a different name), I am completely flabergasted that Verant would take this position after having been fully warned early on by many customers that this is not a desired repercussion of the game.

No matter how Absor (ever the argumentative and never-give-an-inch man) phrases it, this does punish people for levelling. His argument that not all aspects of the game are available to all low level characters is logically weak given that we all have the potential to earn higher levels and complete tougher quests. Sure, a level 10 paladin can't complete the Fiery Defender quest at that level, but how I read this issue is similar to saying "You can't complete the FD quest because you weren't clever enough to start it when you were level 10". And as such, it is a punishment.

It prevents the paying customer to access content of the game with his or her character of choice simply because they didn't first use a spoiler site before playing the game. Sure, enchanters can't complete paladin quests (they can, just can't use the reward... my druid has done many of the mid-level armor quests for each class just for fun). Sure, level 10 players can't access content in Temple of Veeshan at that level. But nobody had any reasonable expectation to be allowed to kill a dragon at level 10. However, the customer has voiced that we want the questing content regardless of the utility of the reward. We need it, as an alternative to evercamping, as a roleplaying aspect of the game and our characters, as a "fun" element of the game that we expect to be able to access because we payed $50 to buy and play a "fun" game.

Do golf games prevent players from doing a par-3 hole because they can play from the pro tees? Do driving games prevent players from driving on the practice course because they have "levelled" past it? Does a First Person Shooter game prevent a player from using a handgun because they are competent enough to use the missile launcher? Does Red Alert prevent me from making infantry men just because I have a helicopter pad or a nuke silo?

"You're in our world now"... Verant's mission statement clearly shuns the customer.
Joe
# Sep 02 2001 at 8:59 PM Rating: Default
I think EQ is a piece of crap, you do nothing but kill monsters all the time. Now they gonna make it so that higher level people can't kill/loot/quest mid level stuff?. I am 55 and I have equipment of a L30-40... why? I am not a part of an *uber* guild, I think all uber guilds suck btw, I try to get all my equipment solo and anything higher than L40 is no can do in this case. Unless they make L50+ equipment easy to get, 1 group of L50s needed... need an army to kill anything in SoV right now btw so don't get fooled by the nice pics again... I won't see any of it. Now they do this crap? trival loot code? I don't farm, all I camp is for my personal use on main char.. have only 1... so I say FK Verant and FK Everquest, it's the biggest piece of crap that ever came out.

And yeah the websites with quest info... are just great, it's hard do quests without any help in EQ, spawns are often broke and no GM cares to help fix it... NPCs eat up items... NPCs not responding to the right words... quests suck in EQ. EQ is nothing more than Diablo in 3D, you kill to play. Am I wrong? can you get to L60 without killing millions of mobs? can you get uber equipment without killing? not sure why it's called RPG?. There is nothing to RP, you just run around like some sicko killing same mobs over and over and over again. Only way to advace in this game is by killing lol.
RE: Joe
# Sep 05 2001 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
Trivial loot code blows unless applied only to loot. Quests should be completable regardless of level, just make the end result NO DROP and that solves all problems.

As for you JOE its obvious to me why you are not in an "UBER" guild, or any guild probably at all. Everquest isn't about killing its about FRIENDS, since you are a jerk I'm doubting you get that concept.
RE: Joe
# Sep 12 2001 at 11:41 AM Rating: Default
That's the solution we need, quite simply. I don't think all the quest items need to be No Drop, but certainly it's on the right track.
BTW, in regards to Joe; EQ is about being in a group. You aren't ever supposed to be able to solo a dragon. Perhaps you played too much munchkin D&D to remember that :)
RE: Joe
# Sep 02 2001 at 9:19 PM Rating: Default
Ok, I have a few things to say about this. How did you get to lvl 55 if ya hate the game? If I hated EQ, I would've quit before 25. I wouldn't have played it out to 55.

Though I do agree with you that there are a lot of quests that really need to be fixed. They should have fixed the quests before they even put em in.
Heck ya
# Sep 01 2001 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
I really dont like the Loot Code, I think it is ok, but I cant get my Iksar to the place for the Blue wicker armor stuff, so I use my druid, yet I still cant get it for him. And I think he looks good in blue.
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