Old World NPC Adjustments

EverQuest Developer Rashere has offered some insights on the recent changes to Pre-PoP NPCs' AC, hitpoints, and DPS values. As seen on EQLive:



Some NPCs are likely hitting for more and others for less than before the patch.  The change involved switching old world NPCs over to newer systems.  Old NPCs all had hand-set values, which led to a lot of variance from NPC to NPC even within the same level range due to different designers making different NPCs (the dreaded "under con").  It also made it very difficult to tune since each individual NPC has to be tracked down and changed if you decide a certain range of NPCs needs to be adjusted.

Under the newer system, NPCs of the same level start with the same baseline values and modify from there based on the NPCs capabilities and class (warriors have more hps, giants hit slower and harder, werewolves are vulnerable to fire, golems have low intelligence, etc.) so depending on what the NPC was set at before, it may have gained or lost damage dealing capabilities in the conversion or it may be dealing similar damage, but in a different fashion (hitting harder, but slower for instance).

This only affected NPCs who weren't already on the new system, which is basically NPCs from Original EQ, Kunark, Velious, and Luclin.  It was also limited mainly to NPCs below level 50 and excluded event NPCs, which have to be tuned case by case regardless.

If you come across any particular NPC that seems to be way out of line compared to other NPCs of the same level around it, feel free to call it out and I'll go have a look.  I'll just need the zone and the full name of the NPC to find it.

Rashere



Different NPCs are still very much their own creatures.  The core change here is that there's consistency across races now, but each race of creatures has its own behavior characteristics.  You can learn and anticipate behaviors now that you couldn't before because there's a consistency that didn't exist previously in low level creatures.  This is the system that we've been using since PoP to make, say, gargoyles act like gargoyles regardless of where they are in the world.

This means that when you've been fighting goblins for a while and learn how they react, you can expect that same behavior to hold true when you run across a goblin in another zone.  But that goblin doesn't act like an orc, a skeleton, a giant, a griffin, or any other creature.  It acts like a goblin.

Here's a concrete example of what I'm talking about:

Take two level 30 creatures.  One is a sand giant.  The other is a skeleton.  They both are set up with baseline values for a level 30 creature so should be an appropriate fight for that level range, but they act completely different from each other.  The sand giant has considerably more hps than the skeleton, for instance.  The skeleton attacks a lot faster than the giant, but when the giant hits you...you'll know it.  They hit hard.  The giant's thick skin gives it an advantage against melee attacks (slight AC advantage), but magic lands relatively easily.  By contrast, the skeleton is pretty fragile, but it's undead nature makes landing poison and disease based spells difficult.  The skeleton is also mindless and less likely to go after a healer or buffer than the giant is.

Overall, even though they are the same baseline values, the giant acts different than the skeleton does and is a tougher fight because of it.

Rashere



Here's the breakdown of the DPS changes to "a large zelniak" in dawnshroud peaks:

Before the patch: max hit of 74, attack speed of 2.68 seconds

After the patch: max hit of 72, attack speed of 2.59 seconds

If you work the math, the overall DPS dropped by about 0.58 DPS.  This particular NPC did pick up some extra attack, though, so is a bit more accurate so we have to take that into account.  That boosts its DPS by about 2 on a caster, closer to 1 on a tank  (varies a bit by class...that's just averages) making the overall change about a 1.5 DPS increase if you're a caster, 0.5 if you're a tank.

Rashere



This is something we've been wanting to do for a while now.  We've been making a big effort to get the low end game into better shape in anticipation of a big push for new players in the near future.  We don't often get a chance to work on low end content or revisit those areas and a lot of the changes we're making are aimed directly at that.  Setting up the NPCs in this fashion is just part of a bigger picture.  There are other changes that we've mentioned in the pipeline as well, such as downtime reduction, and some we haven't discussed much yet, such as modifying zone exp modifiers to make these low end zones more in line with newer zones.

The progression server increased the timeline for the NPC changes since it made sense to get these changes in place before those servers came out instead of after.

Rashere

Comments

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I already quit
# Jul 23 2006 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
EQ is on its last breath, friends. Get out while you can.
It is all about time
# Jul 14 2006 at 5:38 AM Rating: Decent
21 posts
The more time it takes to kill a mob = the more time you play EQ = the more money SOE receives
Fallwear the once mighty ranger
# Jul 14 2006 at 3:41 AM Rating: Decent
I was missing the old EQ and came here to this board to see how EQ was Doing.

After this change I am sure I am not comming back.

Tragic how SOE have destroyed what was once a great game (

Wonderful just Wonderful
# Jul 12 2006 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
2 posts
I came back to EQ not long ago. I had Deleted all my main toons when i left because i was in high school and was failing because of the game. Almost 5 years ago i finished now. Anyway I started my cleric back up, and realized its hopeless to get a group before 50 now. The ones you do get are awful pickup groups that dont seem to know thats going on. So i decided time to leave my love of clerics behind and play something else since i dont have the time like i used to. I switch to a necro and am LOVING IT.

Then here comes sony, hey i think that guy over there might be having fun! We cant allow that here, he should be playing WOW or something! WAM suddenly im getting my butt handed to me by mobs everywhere. Real Smart Sony. Im not sure how many more days of this i can take before i finally cancel my account. Why is my Yellow Skelly getting his rear end handed to him by a Light blue NPC skelly? Are they drinking some water i dont know about or what?


My toon is twinked to heck and back due to having saved my mules from forever ago and having serval items that where worth alot when i came back (although most had dropped in price so hard it made them worthless) Yet i still have heck with the zones now. So what does that mean for the REAL newbies. No new players and a game dies. Mabye sony WANTS EQ to die out now and all of to switch to some new game they made. I thought they already tried that with EQ2. It failed then, and all you will do now is run us to other companys. If your reading this sony you better fix something and fast like.
Disagree
# Jul 12 2006 at 6:24 AM Rating: Default
You know, you guys are aweful quick to flame sony for what they've done. I happen to disagree with you all. With the exception of the one guy that talked about needing skill for this game, you all have the underlying tone that "sony made it too hard", or "i have to group stuff now, i can't solo". MAYBE, JUST MAYBE it's because you're not good at soloing. I solo ALL the time, on new world content regularly, I solo LDoN's (have 2 ppl in group, not in zone for those of you that say that's impossible to get the mission), I solo DoN's (same set up). So to let you know, it's still very possible to solo content in this game, you just have to be *gasp* GOOD AT IT.

Selaam Darkmage
LVL 70 Magician
The Nameless Server
Disagree
# Jul 15 2006 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
36 posts
Are you calling DoN and LDoN new world contents Smiley: oyvey
So you can solo stuff there, well good for you Smiley: clap

Now go and try the REAL new world stuff and try soloing in Devastation or better, Sevrag. Hope your neighbourhood & friendly cleric is online to click on your corpse in GL.

These posts, are about the old world stuff becoming harder & SoE not doing much in regards to bug fixing.
When PoR came out, it still contained the Old World bugs, warps and pathing bugs Smiley: deadhorse

With the next expansion pack coming out, will we see the same crappy bugs again, most probably...

What do you think SoE is prioritzing, quick $$$ or less $$$ but making EQ more attractive and extending its shelflife ?

As it looks right now, its the first pick Smiley: banghead

//Kneron
yeah...
# Jul 11 2006 at 11:12 AM Rating: Default
Giants always hit harder, always had more hps, undead always resisted poison/disease. This is a snow job, mobs have less ac, hit less hard, have more hp, and the resists are the same as always. And now melee have their stupid needless PP buyable augments on top of all the renigging they have done with the spell damage upgrades. Just another case of them ******** casters to give melees more advantage in a group which they never needed...

Liveye (lvl 70 Wizard)
*sigh*
# Jul 11 2006 at 2:48 AM Rating: Default
I like the new system it now takes more "SKILL" to hunt mobs gods forbid u need skill to play a game! with modern gear its (with exception on progression servers) the task ok soloing mobs hasn't increased very much compared to how difficult it was to hunt the mob pre revision with only old world gear.

I do think Sony needs to fix bugs that exist in the game, and that old world content, gear, xp, and graphics need a revamp, however I’m at least happy to see them working on the old content at all its been needed for a long time.

In my opinion if it’s to hard for you and you need a child’s game like WoW have fun. I personally can’t stand games without xp loss, and hardships. No risk for me means no challenge and no challenge leads to boredom. This is why I call it a childs game since children normally cant handle the loss of items, and xp for deaths, ect…

People are never happy and never will be no matter the changes, Sony has simplified the system so much as it is over the years making things easier for people that complain about this and that is to hard really makes me sick. The game is already several times easier then it was originally when they make things a tiny bit more difficult and more complaining.
Ok, to fix this now they need to twik the players
# Jul 07 2006 at 12:25 PM Rating: Decent
Ok, to fix this now they need to twik the players.

Casual players Havn't got it tough
# Jul 06 2006 at 6:14 PM Rating: Default
Its a sad day when i cant log on with a low lvl character to offset the high end content with some relaxed play, now i cant even do that since most of the mobs have been "Fixed" to make the low end more enjoyable.....um do they even listen to the players anymore or are they just deciding they dont need the player base anymore cause they got to many as is? I for one have never posted something like this in the 7 Years ive been playinf EQ, but i must say this is the single worst Update i have ever bore witness to and has actually given more reason to quit then ever before. I guess its the developers way of saying "Hey the casual players havent got it tough as is lets make it worse"....um thanks i guess.
Same
# Jul 06 2006 at 4:14 PM Rating: Default
**
349 posts
So do the old world mobs give more experience or still the same as before? I think this change was awful and is going to make the progression servers very tough, and new players on old servers starting with none of the drops from laters expansions very hard to level. Seems as if the difficulty is in line with the new D&D online in that it is not possible to solo in that either. Wrong way to go. Leave old world alone or give the old harmony and pacify back so people at least pull stuff in a doable fashion.
woot....
# Jul 06 2006 at 5:39 AM Rating: Default
Yea, I'd like to thank Sony for making it hard to solo now. I quit EQ 2 years ago because I got fed up with some of the stuff they were doing, then came back hoping they made it better. I got a ranger up to lvl 60 within a month with epic, then decided to start up a new necro since i use to have one that was lvl 55... I can barely kill anything at all. My newest pets, which con yellow to me, are getting smashed by darkblues, when it should be the other way around, no? Thanks Sony:)
woot....
# Jul 13 2006 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
Why in the Holy-Hell are you trying to tank mobs at all? Kite the bastards. If you can't kite them, then you are probably doing it wrong. For a Necro if it's snareable and does not summon it is dead. Period. If one of those previous conditions are not true but the other is, then it's still dead, but it takes skill.
Good idea, wrong way to go about it.
# Jul 05 2006 at 7:56 PM Rating: Decent
I like the idea of giving different mob races different traits. However, jacking up the mobs to make them harder to kill has to be the stupidest idea Sony has had in a while. For example if they wanted to have a mob be a slightly tougher kill because of it's race, improve the max hit 1 or 2 points. I was in UP today and the mobs that used to hit me for 200 were hitting me for 350.

A casual player is going to have a very tough time with this. Like it or not, people like to be able to solo sometimes. Taking away the option by making old world zones tougher seems like a step in the wrong direction to attracting new low level crowds.
Bah.
# Jul 04 2006 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
The new changes to the old world monsters, logistically, was a good idea. Bringing the old world mobs up to par with the new content mobs seems rightfully justified. But there is one thing they never took into account... The higher level content, or "new content" is being grouped (almost indefinitely) because that's basically the only way to go about killing this creatures. Now that they've tweaked these old world creatures, a lot of them are inefficient or even impossible to kill solo for the level of characters they were originally designed for. Where's the problem? Most people leveling in this level group (1-50's) solo. It's a simple fact, the low level crowd is and has been stagnant and dead in EQ for a long time. Mainly because the low level content hasn't been touched in as long as I can remember. But I guarantee you that this is the wrong way to go about "fixing" it... /boggle
Bah.
# Jul 05 2006 at 9:41 AM Rating: Default
I have been playing on Progression server and it's not the same there. There are alot of players 1-30 that group. Yes, people are forming groups at level 1. There are more forming up at 5 or 6 though. The old world zones have around 200 players in each zone and its really hard to find a mob to get exp since the entire zone has been cleared. This makes those named mobs pop alot more. The hill giants in West Commonlands have been abundant say 6 or 7 or more at one time. The game mechanics needed to be looked at since there are REAL noobies playing for fun and EQ is getting a real look by some new people. Corpse Runs in old world zones is never fun, but these changes may help people to deal with mobs since it removes alot of random losses due to unexplainable combat. The Progression server does not have POK books so travel is alot harder for those level 1-30 toons. The farmers might not like the changes, but the mmporph players do.
Bah.
# Jul 06 2006 at 10:54 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Corpse Runs in old world zones is never fun,but these changes may help people to deal with mobs since it removes alot of random losses due to unexplainable combat

What the hell does THAT mean? Please think about what you TRY to say. This was a complete mishmash. Your readers might agree with you if they could parse this swamp of words. Sort yourself out.
MMs take a hit
# Jul 04 2006 at 2:54 AM Rating: Default
This also makes those old world MMs even harder. I tried to do the HHK one for the rare aug and found that the guards hit in the mid 100s which makes it impossible for even 2 healers to keep up with...thanks again SoE you've been ******** on this game sine you changed from sony computer entertainment
Get to the important stuff, Sony...
# Jul 03 2006 at 11:11 PM Rating: Decent
Thanks for making the old zones totally useless now. Next time y'all get some hair-brained idea to tweak stuff, why don't you use that creative energy and actually FIX THINGS... and I find it funny that only the people that work for Sony wonder why their CS department has been rated the worst in gaming four years running. Their track record since Planes of Power (and not just in EQ either) is proof of it.
Revolution
# Jul 03 2006 at 12:59 PM Rating: Default
well instead of talk why don't we do something about it
We pay for this game not them let us take charge
SoE improve, stop messing with casual players.
# Jul 03 2006 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
36 posts
Not much of a tweak, making npc's harder for lowbees and casual players.
Thats just a slap in their face telling em, go to WoW or DDO, we (SoE) dont want casual players, go to hell / **** of.

Personally i dont have much problem handling these mobs, but switching to an alt gonna make his life harder. XP from old world mobs sucks usually, now they hit harder, so why the hell go to the old world.

Congratulation SoE on trying to de-populate old world zones.

If SoE could do some serious bug fixing instead of minor tweaks, which basically pisses off 90% of all casual players.

Warping sucks bigtime, stopped caring when i solo stuff, but in raids at high end zones, this can hurt a raid much. Warping bugs during a raid is at times bad, sucks bigtime to have adds popping behind the tanks starting to beat on casters / healers.

Pathing....still sucks, is this never gonna get fixed ??? Are all coders still playing wow and ddo ?

After 7+ years playing EQ, i am considering leaving the game, for big, better and more interesting stuff. Only a thin line holding me at EQ, my friends and guild mates. I wish that SoE's Tech support & ingame bugs in EQ would improve.
Have you not learnt anything from playing wow ???

Oldtimer Eq player

Patch Stinks
# Jul 03 2006 at 6:22 AM Rating: Good
Well after 4 years away from EQ I came back and was actually enjoying the game again. My warrior actually was doing pretty decent this time, then along comes this patch and you put my warrior right back in the same ol boat of not being able to do anything without a group. Personally I think this patch really blows when two greens and a light blue about own me at 50 then something just isn't right.

Why do these game developers think that making things more time consuming and harder to accomplish is more fun I have no idea. I do like a challenge as long as I also do stand a chance to achieve it. I do not think a player should be able to solo everything, but if it cons blue and says you should win then by god you should win.

And as for the comment about EQ never being for people who wanted to solo, take a look around is not the player base there use to be, so soloing is more the only option you have alot of the time.

Disgusted Warrior once again.

Thanks Sony for nothing.
Thanks SONY
# Jul 03 2006 at 1:27 AM Rating: Decent
Thanks SOE!

As a casual player not having time to get groups every time I play I have been soloing quite a bit. SOE have clearly showed that soloers are not welcome but I have tried to hang in there and find things to do anyway.
Now I will finally try to find better things to do with my life than play EQ since this finally made me realize that it's only gonna get worse for us casual players, thanks again SOE for giving me my life back =).
Thanks SONY
# Jul 03 2006 at 5:02 AM Rating: Good
Amen to that! I've been burned by too many guilds and so have decided to go guildless for a while (since I usually end up having to solo anyway). So now I'm going to get my butt handed to me even worse? Woo hoo! Hey Sony, here's a riddle for you...what do you get when you cross a class that has a hard time soloing (like my wizard) with mobs that hit harder? Answer: a World of Warcraft player! It's been real and it's been fun, but it hasn't been real fun. See ya, EQ.
End of old world zone use
# Jul 02 2006 at 9:31 AM Rating: Decent
Think that there is really no reason to go to old world zones anymore. Alot of people would go to old world zone to solo till they found a group. Now guess well have to sit in POK till they right group calls.
Seb
# Jul 02 2006 at 5:53 AM Rating: Decent
I have to agree the shrooms now have a max hit of 350 in seb, they make great pets but when a LB shroom is hitting double for the DB sebilites (there max still seems to be 177), maybe the sebilites didn't get upgraded (or maybe trakanon would be trival - cough). Still makes great chanter pets

kob.
.
# Jul 02 2006 at 3:04 AM Rating: Default
The bad part about the old zone mob revamp is that those mobs were tuned to the gear available at the time. I think this will make the most difference on the progressive server more than anything.. even still, it will make an impact on the ppl that don't have the large group support from a guild or close net of friends.
Sebilis 'shrooms'
# Jul 01 2006 at 3:20 PM Rating: Default
The shrooms in Seb now hit for 400+ damage. This seems out of line compared to the rest of the zone.
this sux
# Jul 01 2006 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
i dont like what they did AT all light blue mobs kick my butt ,people cant even hunt in the hot zones anymore because the mobs hit just to hard ,i hope they go back to the old way soon or i will quit this game
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