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#5077 May 05 2018 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
But it could just as easily be that they were different, not their behavior, but they themselves. It is JUST as likely.


No, it's not "just" as likely. Not if the "they" you're referring to here is merely the color of their skin. Two things can both be "possible", but with radically different probabilities. This is one of those cases. For someone with "professor" in his name, I'd think you'd be aware of the difference. Statistically somewhere just under a million black people walk into a Starbucks every single day in the US. If that was "just as likely" to get you tossed out as being rude, or offensive, or threatening to the staff, we'd expect a similar percentage of black people to be asked to leave or risk arrest as we'd see of those being tossed out due to those behaviors.

I think it's pretty clear that is not remotely close to the case. At least, I'd hope it is. If it's not, then you've got a serious case of narrative blinders going on.


I am standing by "just as likely" as I see plenty of stuff like this in the news all the time, and we all know, from your own admission, that you don't get your news from anywhere.


Here's another one we can argue about for the reason behind the cause. Was it because of something they were doing? Were they arguing with the tour guides? Or was there something "different" about them?


Another one. But I am sure there was an angry conversation we didn't see, as the man PAID for his candy.
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#5078 May 07 2018 at 7:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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#5079 May 08 2018 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Statistically somewhere just under a million black people walk into a Starbucks every single day in the US.
Last year found that roughly 38m per month, which means about 1.3m per day, total people visit Starbucks.


That's what happens when you just click on the top link (not realizing it was a speculative one from 2013 as it turns out). Link reported an average of 500 customers per day per starbucks in the US. I then applied math based on the current number of starbucks outlets in the US.

Um... Either way, the point I made is still valid. A large enough number of black people enter a starbucks every single day that if the rate at which they were asked to leave was remotely close to the rate of people exhibiting behaviors we're normally associate with being asked to leave, we'd surely have noticed this long ago. I was specifically responding to a claim that they were equally likely reasons for being asked to leave. Which is quite obviously not remotely close to true.

Let me be clear (again) that this does not prove anything regarding this one particular case. Any one case can be an outlier. But to suggest that the odds of one explanation versus another are "the same" is not true. The odds are overwhelmingly likely that these two men did or said something to the store manager which prompted her to ask them to leave, and then call the police when they didn't. The fact that they also happen to be black likely had nothing at all to do with her decision (but everything to do with the public/media reaction).
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#5080 May 08 2018 at 5:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
Tirith wrote:
Never said it did/didn't. The point was a counter to Alma's "Hey, no one said they heard anything."

I stated the fact that no other customers have came out to speak to the contrary of the two men's account of what happened. Gbaji responded with

Gbaji wrote:
"You are aware that store employees don't normally announce on loudspeaker when some kind of conflict is going on, right? Have you ever been in a bar where a bouncer grabs someone and pulls them out of the bar? Odds are your first clue that something was going on was the bouncer's actions, and possible some yelling and whatnot from the guy being manhandled. You probably had no clue there was a problem until that happened. "


I responded that a coffee shop is not like a club. If there is an altercation there, it's likely that someone would have seen it or heard it. If nothing was heard, then at a minimum, they appeared calm from afar (key word). I didn't claim that there was no dispute.


And my response to that was that the noise level isn't the issue. My point about the bar example wasn't to highlight that in a loud environment you wont notice things going on between the staff and other patrons, but that in just about any environment you likely will not. Not until something "happens", which is usually when someone is confronted by a bouncer, police officer, etc. The original altercation which led up to this almost always goes unnoticed.

Yes. Even if you were in a library, and someone was doing something the librarian didn't like, and were asked (super quietly because this is a library) to stop, and they refused, etc, etc. Same deal. You'd see the cops (quietly) walk in (actually you might not even notice them at that point). You'd see them (quietly) talking to someone over there somewhere. Then you'd see cuffs being placed on them, and wonder why they were being arrested.

I was so much *not* making this an issue about ambient noise. You chose to focus on that. I already tried to counter that the noise level doesn't matter in this case. This is true in just about every single case where you were not directly involved in the event which caused the police to be called, but are in proximity when the police arrive. You will almost *never* know what prompted the call, or be aware of what happened prior to the police arriving. This does not in any way automatically mean that the cops were there "for no reason" or arrested the people "for no reason". Just because you don't know what happened does not automatically mean there wasn't a perfectly good reason for what happened.

Which was my entire point. Everything about this is a whole lot of people shouting that it must have been for no reason, thus it could only have been because of race, and then running with that assumption. But there is zero reason to assume this. Other than the massive number of people repeating the assumption. Which is a poor reason to conclude anything.
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#5081 May 08 2018 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
But it could just as easily be that they were different, not their behavior, but they themselves. It is JUST as likely.


No, it's not "just" as likely. Not if the "they" you're referring to here is merely the color of their skin. Two things can both be "possible", but with radically different probabilities. This is one of those cases. For someone with "professor" in his name, I'd think you'd be aware of the difference. Statistically somewhere just under a million black people walk into a Starbucks every single day in the US. If that was "just as likely" to get you tossed out as being rude, or offensive, or threatening to the staff, we'd expect a similar percentage of black people to be asked to leave or risk arrest as we'd see of those being tossed out due to those behaviors.

I think it's pretty clear that is not remotely close to the case. At least, I'd hope it is. If it's not, then you've got a serious case of narrative blinders going on.


I am standing by "just as likely" as I see plenty of stuff like this in the news all the time, and we all know, from your own admission, that you don't get your news from anywhere.


Here's another one we can argue about for the reason behind the cause. Was it because of something they were doing? Were they arguing with the tour guides? Or was there something "different" about them?


Another one. But I am sure there was an angry conversation we didn't see, as the man PAID for his candy.


You know what all three of those have in common? The assumption, after the fact but without proof, that the events must have been motivated by race. They honestly speak more to the racial bias of those writing the stories than the cops involved. Guess what? Things like this happen all the time. Yes, to white people too. The difference? When a cop mistakenly thinks a white man is stealing something and confronts him, you never hear about it on the news. And when a white man is confronted at gun point in front of his new apartment he's just moved into that very day, and he doesn't have immediate proof that he lives there (cause he just moved in that day), and he happens to match the description of someone who committed a violent crime nearby, you'll also never hear about it on the news.

Want to know how I know this? That second case? Happened to me personally. Amazingly, no media were involved in that event, despite it being very very similar to the one you linked above. The difference isn't how the police reacted to the skin color of the people, but to how the media responds to the people's skin color when deciding that something is a story. Or even, the "victim" choosing to complain about it in the first place, such that it becomes a media story in the first place. It never once occurred to me to file a complaint, or go to the media with my story, despite quite obviously having been targeted because I was a white male in an area late at night when they were looking for white males. If I'd been black, I would not have been targeted.

So no. I don't buy this kind of stuff. Doubly so when people try to argue about how they "never hear about this happening to white people", and thus conclude that it doesn't, and thus feed their assumption about racial bias/profiling being involved. That's simply not correct. The bias is in your own perception of these things and the relative likelihood of them happening. And that's not your fault at all. Your perception is based on media reporting. Which itself is based on reporting *to* the media. When these sorts of things happen to white people, they don't tend to think "I was targeted because of my skin color", so they never go to the media, and it never gets reported. When it happens to people of color, some of them do, and it gets reported in the media, which creates the perception of bias/profiling, which in turn affects the next POC's perception of a similar event when it happens to them, which affects their likelihood of going to the media, which in turn perpetuates the false perception, repeat, repeat, repeat. And we get to where we are now.

Again. I don't buy it. Not without a heck of a lot more solid facts to go by.
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#5082 May 09 2018 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
A large enough number of black people enter a starbucks every single day that if the rate at which they were asked to leave was remotely close to the rate of people exhibiting behaviors we're normally associate with being asked to leave, we'd surely have noticed this long ago.
Well maybe some of us don't just stop at the first link we see and assume it's accurate without actually reading it? And while a "large enough number of black people" enter a Starbucks every single day, a significantly higher number of white people do as well and so far there has been zero examples of their being arrested for being assholes.
gbaji wrote:
The odds are overwhelmingly likely that these two men did or said something to the store manager which prompted her to ask them to leave, and then call the police when they didn't.
The other month an IHOP made black customers pay in advance for their food, Cracker Barrel and Denny's both recently settled lawsuits about treating black customers differently. It isn't overwhelmingly likely if you can't provide any examples.
gbaji wrote:
I don't buy it. Not without a heck of a lot more solid facts to go by.
Calling something "overwhelmingly likely" doesn't actually make it a fact.

Edited, May 9th 2018 10:10am by lolgaxe
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#5083 May 09 2018 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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More gbaji gbait
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#5084 May 09 2018 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
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Gbaji wrote:
I was so much *not* making this an issue about ambient noise. You chose to focus on that. I already tried to counter that the noise level doesn't matter in this case. This is true in just about every single case where you were not directly involved in the event which caused the police to be called, but are in proximity when the police arrive.


Almalieque wrote:
I didn't claim that there was no dispute.


Almalieque wrote:
If nothing was heard, then at a minimum, they appeared calm from afar (key word).


That is not in any way making the noise level the primary focus. You don't have to hear anything to notice that something is wrong. Librarians (or baristas) usually don't interact with people longer than a few seconds. So, if they are consistently interacting with someone, then it is fair to assume that *something* is wrong. Movement is more easily noticed in a quiet atmosphere, even if no one is talking.

Gbaji wrote:
But there is zero reason to assume this.
Except the fact that absolutely no witnesses have come out to contradict the assumption. They have only agreed to it. That doesn't make it legit (as witnesses can lie), but to say there is *zero* reason to assume that is blatantly false. That is why you made the comment about the noise, to rationalize why no one has contradicted the claim. Even then, it doesn't explain the ones who have agreed to the assumption.
#5085 May 09 2018 at 2:50 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
A large enough number of black people enter a starbucks every single day that if the rate at which they were asked to leave was remotely close to the rate of people exhibiting behaviors we're normally associate with being asked to leave, we'd surely have noticed this long ago.
Well maybe some of us don't just stop at the first link we see and assume it's accurate without actually reading it? And while a "large enough number of black people" enter a Starbucks every single day, a significantly higher number of white people do as well and so far there has been zero examples of their being arrested for being assholes.
gbaji wrote:
The odds are overwhelmingly likely that these two men did or said something to the store manager which prompted her to ask them to leave, and then call the police when they didn't.
The other month an IHOP made black customers pay in advance for their food, Cracker Barrel and Denny's both recently settled lawsuits about treating black customers differently. It isn't overwhelmingly likely if you can't provide any examples.
gbaji wrote:
I don't buy it. Not without a heck of a lot more solid facts to go by.
Calling something "overwhelmingly likely" doesn't actually make it a fact.

Yeah, but, y'know, he's "fairly certain" that he's right.
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#5086 May 09 2018 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Di you ever go to college?

Did you ever stay up all night studying in the dorm common room?

Did you end up falling asleep and have the cops called on you?

Quote:
(CNN)A white person voices suspicions about an innocuous person of color. Police are summoned. And the encounter is posted on social media, sparking outrage about racial profiling.
In what is becoming an all-too familiar episode, a black Yale University graduate student was interrogated by campus police officers early Tuesday morning after a white student found her sleeping in a common room of their dorm and called police.
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#5087 May 09 2018 at 5:28 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, actually. But I knocked the copper out and chainsawed the guy who accused me in half, hollowed out their corpse and sewed it up around the unconscious policemen. If black people don't want to go to jail, they need to take a proactive approach like I did, instead of sitting in a cell waiting for their so-called civil rights to vest like some kind of sucker.
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#5088 May 09 2018 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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That one... while I personally never passed out in my dorm common area, we had more than one occasion of campus officers being called on people sleeping outside of their rooms. People just found it easier to report to security and let them deal with potentially drunk students.
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#5089 May 09 2018 at 6:07 PM Rating: Decent
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So much for a sense of community.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#5090 May 09 2018 at 6:38 PM Rating: Good
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Debalic wrote:
So much for a sense of community.
It's not like any of us really chose to be around the people we were forced to be around. Smiley: smile

Like that joke on Family Guy...


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#5091 May 10 2018 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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TirithRR wrote:
People just found it easier to report to security and let them deal with potentially drunk students.
Yeah, that one sounds like an overreaction. Personal anecdote reliable as it is, one of my soldiers does campus security as his nine-to-five and he's regularly waking up drunks and overexhausted kids from the common areas.
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#5092 May 10 2018 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
And while a "large enough number of black people" enter a Starbucks every single day, a significantly higher number of white people do as well and so far there has been zero examples of their being arrested for being assholes.


You have zero evidence to support that statement. It's laughably unlikely that zero white people have ever been arrested at a Starbucks for anything, ever.

What you meant to say is that there have been zero examples of a white person being arrested at a Starbucks creating a massive media outrage about said arrest. See my point about perception causing this though. When a white person is arrested at a Starbucks (or anywhere, for that matter), it's assumed that since he's white, and is therefore privileged, that he must have done something to justify the arrest. There's no story there. When a black person is arrested, even if for the exact same thing? Totally different story. And, as this example has seen, in the absence of absolutely clear proof of wrongdoing on the part of the black person by witnesses to the event, who go on record stating that absolutely clear proof of wrongdoing, the media and public will simply assume that it "must have been racial bias"

That's literally exactly what happened in this case. The entire argument for racial bias is that no one saw the two men do anything they thought justified arrest. But, as I've said repeatedly, absence of proof isn't proof of absence. Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean that something didn't happen.


Quote:
gbaji wrote:
The odds are overwhelmingly likely that these two men did or said something to the store manager which prompted her to ask them to leave, and then call the police when they didn't.
The other month an IHOP made black customers pay in advance for their food...


They made a group of teenagers pay in advance for their food. The server reported that she'd been asked by management to do this because they'd had a huge problem with teens coming in, ordering food, and then running out without paying. This is actually a great example of what I'm talking about because we have no count of how many groups of white teens were similarly asked to do the same thing, without anyone noticing or making a fuss about it, with the issue only becoming "noticed" when the group was black and the people noticing it assumed that it must be because of their skin color.

It's the same assumption being made here. Since something bad happened to a group of black people, it must have been because of their skin. But that's your assumption, not mine. Now in this case, I happen to think that making some customers pay up front because you think they might dine and dash is a terrible idea anyway, but the reason it's a bad idea has nothing to do with skin color specifically. It's just bad customer service. There are a whole list of better ways to deal with customer theft like that.

Again though. I don't automatically leap to "it must be racial bias!!!".


Quote:
gbaji wrote:
I don't buy it. Not without a heck of a lot more solid facts to go by.
Calling something "overwhelmingly likely" doesn't actually make it a fact.


No. Just saying it doesn't make it doesn't make it a "fact". Supporting a statement with logic and reason does make it "more likely", though. Possibly even "overwhelmingly likely". Or are you suggesting that we're not allowed to make any sort of probability assessment of anything. So the odds of you getting hit by lightning today is equal to the odds of it raining, cause I can't state for a "fact" that you wont get hit by lighting? That's... dumb.
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#5093 May 10 2018 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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lolgaxe wrote:
TirithRR wrote:
People just found it easier to report to security and let them deal with potentially drunk students.
Yeah, that one sounds like an overreaction. Personal anecdote reliable as it is, one of my soldiers does campus security as his nine-to-five and he's regularly waking up drunks and overexhausted kids from the common areas.


Right. So this is a common thing that happens to people, of all colors. Yet, the article made a point of mentioning that the person who called security was white and the person being called on was black. At what point do we start to conclude that this is largely media driven and not really representative of racial bias on the part of the people calling the police/security nor on the part of the police/security?

It's the media that drives the perception that this is somehow only something that happens to people of color. How many times have we heard, just in this thread, someone insisting that "we never hear about this happening to white people"? That's the point. You don't hear about it, because it's not a media story when it happens. That does not mean it does not happen, quite regularly in fact.
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#5094 May 10 2018 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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All that aside, I went to order something through Doordash and thought "Wow, there's a lot of money stacked on this order." Then I moused over "Taxes & Fees" and saw "An 18% service charge will be applied to help keep Doordash running". Bitch, that's what a delivery fee is for!

So I ordered the same food from UberEats which applies the same flat delivery charge but no extra semi-hidden fees.
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#5095 May 10 2018 at 6:36 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
And while a "large enough number of black people" enter a Starbucks every single day, a significantly higher number of white people do as well and so far there has been zero examples of their being arrested for being assholes.


You have zero evidence to support that statement. It's laughably unlikely that zero white people have ever been arrested at a Starbucks for anything, ever.
I thought the same thing. 16 pages deep into google, I gave up trying to prove him wrong.
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#5096 May 10 2018 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Smile and wave, or I call the cops.

But not on your white friend, just the black folks.
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#5097 May 10 2018 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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You're under arrest for theft Just kidding, the white folks called the police for no reason
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#5098 May 10 2018 at 10:49 PM Rating: Good
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And, our last one for tonight, an unarmed suspect is shot on camera
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#5099 May 11 2018 at 8:12 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You have zero evidence to support that statement.
I have myself and one other person that actually looked into it and found zero examples. You have zero evidence otherwise.
gbaji wrote:
What you meant to say is that there have been zero examples
lolgaxe, literally in the quoted portion wrote:
a significantly higher number of white people do as well and so far there has been zero examples of their being arrested for being assholes.
Another example of you just not reading and just plowing ahead like a retarded bull?

It's the age of social media, if you want to argue that somehow if a white person were arrested for waiting on friends and wanting to use the bathroom at a Starbucks that it wouldn't appear on the internet then ... well, I'm going to have to make fun of you for living in the past.

Maybe there have been arrests. Anything is a possibility, but without evidence you don't get to just say it happens as a fact. You have to actually, you know, prove it.
gbaji wrote:
Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean that something didn't happen.
Sure, there is zero evidence that they were arrested for being assholes, they must have been arrested for being assholes.

But it's always cute when a people insist that their inability to actually prove what they're claiming is somehow proven.
gbaji wrote:
Supporting a statement with logic and reason does make it "more likely", though.
Reason and logic are easily influenced by personal bias. Facts and evidence are what matter. Especially when your "reason and logic" have no actual substance, at which point it's just an opinion.
gbaji wrote:
So the odds of you getting hit by lightning today is equal to the odds of it raining, cause I can't state for a "fact" that you wont get hit by lighting?
This must be the same math that brought you to the "75% of Starbucks' customer demographic are black males!" Fun. Seeing as how the odds of it raining today is 0%, and the odds of me getting hit by lightning today are also 0%, I can actually state for a fact that getting hit by lightning today is equal to the odds of it raining: 0%. See, I used a weather report and the knowledge of all the higher structures and lightning rods in my area, not just saying "BECAUSE I CAN'T PROVE IT MUST MEAN IT IS TRUE" over and over again.

I recently searched Google for twenty minutes and haven't found a single instance of your not being part of the Klu Klux Klan. Now, since I can't prove you're in the Klu Klux Klan, I guess that means I can't prove you're not in the Klu Klux Klan, and considering how out of the way you go to assume guilt in anyone that isn't white ...
gbaji wrote:
They made a group of teenagers pay in advance for their food.
Just not the white teenagers.
gbaji wrote:
The server reported that she'd been asked by management
The same management that denied it and punished the server?

Edited, May 11th 2018 11:23am by lolgaxe
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#5100 May 11 2018 at 11:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wait, did Gbaji say "Just because you didn't see something doesn't mean that something didn't happen"? Gbaji said that? As in our Gbaji? The same guy whose entire worldview is "If it didn't happen to me, it must not happen to anyone"?

Well, I'll be damned.
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#5101 May 11 2018 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Red letter day for consistency.
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