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Reducing CO2 Emissions: It's not about the Money.Follow

#1 Jun 10 2014 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Today's Opinion from Paul....

There are 3 things Krugman wants you to know about man-made climate change:
Krugman wrote:
First, the consequences will be terrible if we don’t take quick action to limit carbon emissions. Second, in pure economic terms the required action shouldn’t be hard to take: emission controls, done right, would probably slow economic growth, but not by much. Third, the politics of action are nonetheless very difficult.


He further adds:
Krugman wrote:
funding from fossil-fuel interests has played a crucial role in sustaining the illusion that climate science is less settled than it is. But the monetary stakes aren’t nearly as big as you might think. What makes rational action on climate so hard is something else — a toxic mix of ideology and anti-intellectualism.


And in conclusion....
Krugman wrote:
The fact that climate concerns rest on scientific consensus makes things even worse, because it plays into the anti-intellectualism that has always been a powerful force in American life, mainly on the right. It’s not really surprising that so many right-wing politicians and pundits quickly turned to conspiracy theories, to accusations that thousands of researchers around the world were colluding in a gigantic hoax whose real purpose was to justify a big-government power grab. After all, right-wingers never liked or trusted scientists in the first place.


This doesn't come as a surprise to me. I long ago understood that environmentalism is just another business. Regulating our resources for present and future use has turned into a mighty industry - with lots of growth potential. Anyone trying to sell the idea that reducing CO2 emissions is as an economy killer is suffering from the blindness of self-interest.

Also Krugman is never one to miss a chance to slam right-wing idealism, but still an interesting read.
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#2 Jun 10 2014 at 8:36 AM Rating: Good
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Krugman wrote:
It’s not really surprising that so many right-wing politicians and pundits quickly turned to conspiracy theories, to accusations that thousands of researchers around the world were colluding in a gigantic hoax whose real purpose was to justify a big-government power grab.
Yeah, but what if we do all this and make the world a better reason place for NO REASON AT ALL, huh Krugman? Checkmate, atheists.

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 10:41am by lolgaxe
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#3 Jun 10 2014 at 9:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
Stuff

1) Anti-intellectualism is bad.

2) The world is getting warmer.

3) We're largely responsible.

4) That's no reason to panic. Unless you live in The Maldives or something, then you should probably consider looking elsewhere for employment.
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#4 Jun 10 2014 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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someproteinguy wrote:
1) Anti-intellectualism is bad.


Correct. And applying it as a label to get people to avoid thinking about an issue is even worse.

Quote:
2) The world is getting warmer.


This totally depends on your frame of reference. Over the last century? Sure. Over the last millennium? No. Over the last 10 years? No. This statement is anti-intellectualism at its worst because you can always find some point in the history of the earth that was cooler than today (or some time period near today), and say "the world is getting warmer!!!". It's a meaningless statement.

Quote:
3) We're largely responsible.


We are, at best, minutely responsible for temperature changes in general. Any specific change is well into the realm of pure speculation. And latching this statement on to the previous one just doubles down on the anti-intellectualism you started out condemning.

Quote:
4) That's no reason to panic. Unless you live in The Maldives or something, then you should probably consider looking elsewhere for employment.


There are always regions of the world where there will be (and have been) flooding or drought. Whether you should panic based on being afflicted by one of those is up to you. Whether we should panic as a whole is pretty silly.

The dire predictions made back in the early 2000s did not come true. They are not coming true. But, as Krugman correctly observes, once people take a firm position on something politically it's incredibly hard for them to admit they were wrong. At this point, the entirety of the GW argument rests on that refusal. The evidence has all been steadily moving in the other direction, but we'll have to wait long enough for folks to think people have forgotten their claims before we'll get honesty from them. That's the reality. We're seeing embarrassed GW proponents trying to find ways to weasel out of the issue.

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 5:48pm by gbaji
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#5 Jun 10 2014 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
The evidence has all been steadily moving in the other direction

Also, all the polling is pointing towards a Romney blow-out.

You're not really one to tell anyone how to interpret "evidence" Smiley: laugh
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#6 Jun 10 2014 at 4:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And applying it as a label to get people to avoid thinking about an issue is even worse.
We get stuck with yous. Smiley: frown
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George Carlin wrote:
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#7 Jun 10 2014 at 4:08 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The evidence has all been steadily moving in the other direction

Also, all the polling is pointing towards a Romney blow-out.


This, for those paying attention, is an example of anti-intellectualism at work.
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King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#8 Jun 10 2014 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
The evidence has all been steadily moving in the other direction
Also, all the polling is pointing towards a Romney blow-out.
This, for those paying attention, is an example of anti-intellectualism at work.
Looks more like oversampling.
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#9 Jun 10 2014 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
This, for those paying attention, is an example of anti-intellectualism at work.

Agreed. Crying that all the data must be "Wrong" because it doesn't meet your political world view is an excellent example. All the polls are rigged, all the NOAA reports showing increased temperatures are faked, all the data is because the scientists are paid off, Western democracies are a terrible comparison for gun violence when we could be using central African nations, yadda yadda.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#10 Jun 10 2014 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll just leave this here.
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#11 Jun 10 2014 at 4:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anti-intellectual following false data paid off by Big Science to control the world economy. Smiley: disappointed
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#12 Jun 10 2014 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
stuff
That's an awful lot of reading things into 16ish words. Smiley: rolleyes

1) I'm glad we agree.

2) Your reasoning here is largely why I said #4. We've been much colder, and much warmer, and we're still here.

3) Any reasonable modern study will break out the man-made influence as a percentage with a range of uncertainty. That range tends to be more than you claim we're responsible for, and less than you seem to attribute to the other side claiming we're responsible for. The field has come a long way in the last 20 years or so. I don't think any scientist worth their stuff sees this as an all-or-nothing prospect.

4) It's a bit of humor, relax. Unless you live in The Maldives or something, in which case you'd be best to get to higher ground first.
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#13 Jun 10 2014 at 7:02 PM Rating: Default
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And? The question isn't with what will happen *if* a given level of temperature increase occurs, but whether that level of temperature increase actually will occur. Let's recall that the model being used assumes an incremental greenhouse gas effect. What this means is that small temperature increases cause small greenhouse gas increases, which in turn cause increased heat retention (cause that's what greenhouse gasses do), which means slightly larger temperature increases in future iterations, which result in more greenhouse gas, causing more heat retention, rinse and repeat.

Predictions based on that model cannot be accurate if we don't see the small initial increases they depend on. Every single prediction on which the dire consequences (and need to act *NOW*) were based on assumed constant steady temperature increases. Not one of them predicted global temperatures actually dipping down for the first 15 years and then somehow magically increasing to levels required for those century end points to be reached. Not. One.

Ergo, those predictions cannot be assumed to be true. Why the hell are people still going on about this? They were wrong. Admit it and move on.

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 6:09pm by gbaji
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#14 Jun 10 2014 at 7:07 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
I don't think any scientist worth their stuff sees this as an all-or-nothing prospect.


Tell that to the "we must pass this ridiculous bill or we will all die!!!" crowd then. No one on my "side" thinks there's no benefit at all to being more "green". We're quite reasonable that way. The problem is that we're being faced with absolutely unreasonable and irrational claims, coupled with the argument that if we don't go along with them we're being unscientific and anti-intellectual. How do you reason with that? Heck. Just read Krugman's article. He doesn't even bother to make his own case. He basically just slams people who don't agree. And yeah, that gets frustrating as hell.

Quote:
4) It's a bit of humor, relax. Unless you live in The Maldives or something, in which case you'd be best to get to higher ground first.


It would be a lot more funny if the folks on the other "side" weren't totally serious about it. I'd be more than willing to laugh it off if it weren't for people like Krugman calling me anti-scientific because I don't support some cap and trade law. Get it? Get the idiots like Krugman to admit that the whole thing is just a joke and I'll laugh. Until then, I'm somewhat forced to take them just as seriously as they take themselves.
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#15 Jun 10 2014 at 7:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Tell that to the "we must pass this ridiculous bill or we will all die!!!" crowd then.
You mean the guys pushing Iran sanctions?
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#16 Jun 10 2014 at 7:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Get the idiots like Krugman to admit that the whole thing is just a joke and I'll laugh. Until then, I'm somewhat forced to take them just as seriously as they take themselves.
Why? The are nutters all over the place that propose all sorts of legislation that has no hope of succeeding and harp on ideas that many people think aren't well grounded. You'll needlessly tire yourself out if you take them seriously.

Yes, what lolgaxe said... Smiley: lol

Edited, Jun 10th 2014 6:31pm by someproteinguy
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#17 Jun 10 2014 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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someproteinguy wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Get the idiots like Krugman to admit that the whole thing is just a joke and I'll laugh. Until then, I'm somewhat forced to take them just as seriously as they take themselves.
Why? The are nutters all over the place that propose all sorts of legislation that has no hope of succeeding and harp on ideas that many people think aren't well grounded. You'll needlessly tire yourself out if you take them seriously.


Um... I don't take the nutters seriously. I take the people who take them seriously seriously. And "needlessly" suggests that if I (and others like me) just said nothing, then there would be no harm. But if it weren't for people like us sticking our necks out and sticking to our arguments for the last 15 years (and taking all the verbal abuse along the way), there would have been a bunch of stupid regulations passed based on the irrational GW arguments such "nutters" keep making. How on earth is that needless?

I would love for it not to be needed. Sadly, it is.
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#18 Jun 10 2014 at 8:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Um... I don't take the nutters seriously.
No, of course not. That birth certificate was just that serious.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#19 Jun 10 2014 at 8:20 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Tell that to the "we must pass this ridiculous bill or we will all die!!!" crowd then.
You mean the guys pushing Iran sanctions?


Let's compare the odds of Iran building a nuclear weapon in 10 years if we do nothing to the odds of ecological disaster in 10 years (or even 100 years) if we do nothing. Seriously? That's the argument you're going to try to use? Weak sauce. That doesn't even make sense.
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#20 Jun 10 2014 at 8:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Let's compare the odds of Iran building a nuclear weapon in 10 years if we do nothing to the odds of ecological disaster in 10 years (or even 100 years) if we do nothing.
Okay, let's. Present your evidence.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#21 Jun 10 2014 at 8:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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someproteinguy wrote:
4) That's no reason to panic.

Sez you!
#22 Jun 10 2014 at 8:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Every single prediction on which the dire consequences (and need to act *NOW*) were based on assumed constant steady temperature increases. Not one of them predicted global temperatures actually dipping down for the first 15 years and then somehow magically increasing to levels required for those century end points to be reached. Not. One.

Screenshot
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#23 Jun 10 2014 at 8:31 PM Rating: Default
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lolgaxe wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Let's compare the odds of Iran building a nuclear weapon in 10 years if we do nothing to the odds of ecological disaster in 10 years (or even 100 years) if we do nothing.
Okay, let's. Present your evidence.


Given that you made the comparison, how about you go first? Or do you just want to admit that it was a moronic thing to say and move on?
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King Nobby wrote:
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#24 Jun 10 2014 at 8:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Given that you made the comparison, how about you go first?
GOP blocked a recent Veteran's Benefit Bill because they wanted to push an Iran Sanction's Bill. Your turn: What evidence is there that Iran is making nuclear weapons that the GOP felt the need to attach it to what should be a bill to show your support for the people you send to die for you?

Take your time, patriot.
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George Carlin wrote:
I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately.
#25 Jun 10 2014 at 8:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Screenshot


POINTS!
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#26 Jun 10 2014 at 9:01 PM Rating: Good
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Professor stupidmonkey wrote:
POINTS!
They don't matter.
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George Carlin wrote:
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