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More Shooting Stuff: Murder or DefenseFollow

#1 Apr 30 2014 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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The Daily show had a nice segment about guns the NRA and shooter's insurance last night. Mr. Smith might need that insurance.

Yesterday in MN this angry old guy, Byron Smith, was found guilty of 4 counts of murder for shooting two teens that had broke into his home. (two counts 1st degree, two counts 2nd degree). He pretty much baited them in while he was lying-in-wait with gun loaded to kill them. STORY

Agree or disagree with the verdict?
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#2 Apr 30 2014 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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He was never in danger, and he wasn't hiding behind a woman.
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#3 Apr 30 2014 at 7:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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He's a nasty piece of work.

On the other hand... what the hell were they doing breaking into his house?
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#4 Apr 30 2014 at 7:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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I heard about this story a week or so ago and, from what I heard, it sounded pretty clearly like premeditated murder. The guy set up shop in his basement with a barricade, food and water, equipment for removing the bodies, etc. He was set up for the sole reason of killing these people and then went as far as admitting to the police that he killed at least one of them while they were incapacitated. Really (again, from what little I heard) his remarks to the police were probably as damning as anything else for proving intent.
Samira wrote:
On the other hand... what the hell were they doing breaking into his house?

Breaking the law, obviously. But even "castle doctrine" doesn't generally give you the right to lay death traps in lieu of calling the police.

Weasel words because there's fifty states and maybe one of them has a death trap clause
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#5 Apr 30 2014 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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He should have said he thought they were zombies.
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#6 Apr 30 2014 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
He should have said he thought they were zombies.

The Zombie Claws defense works every time.
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#7 Apr 30 2014 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
He should have said he thought they were zombies.

The Zombie Claws defense Defense Clause works every time.

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#8 Apr 30 2014 at 8:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Breaking the law, obviously. But even "castle doctrine" doesn't generally give you the right to lay death traps in lieu of calling the police.


Yeah, I get that. I'm just saying, they contributed to their own deaths by massive teenage dumbassery. Not that one expects the death penalty for that, by any means.
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#9 Apr 30 2014 at 8:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Always blaming the victim, Samira! Smiley: mad
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#10 Apr 30 2014 at 8:15 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
I'm just saying, they contributed to their own deaths by massive teenage dumbassery.
I wish it were legal to set deathtraps for dumb people.
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#11 Apr 30 2014 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I heard about this story a week or so ago and, from what I heard, it sounded pretty clearly like premeditated murder. The guy set up shop in his basement with a barricade, food and water, equipment for removing the bodies, etc. He was set up for the sole reason of killing these people and then went as far as admitting to the police that he killed at least one of them while they were incapacitated. Really (again, from what little I heard) his remarks to the police were probably as damning as anything else for proving intent.
Samira wrote:
On the other hand... what the hell were they doing breaking into his house?

Breaking the law, obviously. But even "castle doctrine" doesn't generally give you the right to lay death traps in lieu of calling the police.

Weasel words because there's fifty states and maybe one of them has a death trap clause


In MA death traps are explicitly illegal. As are pits with obscured entrances, not explicitly leading to death.

This isn't weird info to know offhand.
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#12 Apr 30 2014 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Samira wrote:
I'm just saying, they contributed to their own deaths by massive teenage dumbassery.
I wish it were legal to set deathtraps for dumb people.
And, if you get killed by the traps you set, they were working as intended. Smiley: nod
#13 Apr 30 2014 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Samira wrote:
I'm just saying, they contributed to their own deaths by massive teenage dumbassery.
I wish it were legal to set deathtraps for dumb people.


Barbed wire and slick surfaces are legal in your state.

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#14 Apr 30 2014 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Barbed wire and slick surfaces are legal in your state.
Not really the same as a claymore set in a candy bowl.
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#15 Apr 30 2014 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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I assume your house is skipped during Halloween.
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#16 Apr 30 2014 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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"Dammit, we have to replace the front porch again. Damn kids."
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#17 Apr 30 2014 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
Samira wrote:
I'm just saying, they contributed to their own deaths by massive teenage dumbassery.
I wish it were legal to set deathtraps for dumb people.

Have-a-Heart Traps; before you transport them to a remote location and set them free you can watch and laugh at their caged antics.
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#18 Apr 30 2014 at 9:01 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
I assume your house is skipped during Halloween.
Girl Scout season. Need a good lure.

And claymores are directional so the porch is relatively safe. Smiley: schooled
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#19 Apr 30 2014 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
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He probably thought he'd get away with it. Unfortunately for him he doesn't live in Florida.
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#20 Apr 30 2014 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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He WOULD have gotten away with it, except for those.... oh.
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#21 Apr 30 2014 at 11:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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He seems like the type that probably wouldn't have cared much if he got away with it or not. I mean what's life in prison for him, like 6 years or something?
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#22 Apr 30 2014 at 3:50 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I heard about this story a week or so ago and, from what I heard, it sounded pretty clearly like premeditated murder. The guy set up shop in his basement with a barricade, food and water, equipment for removing the bodies, etc. He was set up for the sole reason of killing these people and then went as far as admitting to the police that he killed at least one of them while they were incapacitated. Really (again, from what little I heard) his remarks to the police were probably as damning as anything else for proving intent.
Samira wrote:
On the other hand... what the hell were they doing breaking into his house?

Breaking the law, obviously. But even "castle doctrine" doesn't generally give you the right to lay death traps in lieu of calling the police.


I think it's less that than the former issue (killing them even once incapacitated). There's actually an interesting aspect to the case with regard to where the boundary should lie between premeditated murder and legitimate defense of one's property. In this case, his home had been burglarized before, allegedly by the same two who he killed. We can assume he reported the previous break ins and police investigated, but nothing came of it. The legal question is whether he's in the right to pretend to be away and wait for someone to break in?

Personally, I don't think that should be illegal. He didn't force them to break into his house. Assuming we accept that he has a right to defend his property in the first place, then I don't think he's obligated to truthfully inform a would be burglar as to when they can do so safely. Can he pretend to not be there as well? Again, is a homeowner obligated to tell people the truth about whether he's at home or not? Where does this line of thinking end though? If I buy a system that turns on and off lights in my home to make it look like I'm there when I'm not, am I violating some would be thief's right to break into my home? I think that's a bit silly. Why is the opposite legally problematic?


In this case, I think the issue is that he clearly intended to kill these kids rather than protect his property. But I'm concerned that people seem to be focusing on the "he set a trap" angle, and not the "he continued to shot them until they were dead rather than just to incapacitate them and then he didn't call the police for a day" angle. But that's what makes this murder IMO. A homeowner should absolutely have the right to pretend to not be home if he wants, for whatever reason he wants. That should not even be a factor here.
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#23 Apr 30 2014 at 4:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I didn't read any articles about the ruling or what the justification was. But since he was found guilty as I thought he should be I guess I don't really care a whole lot either.
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#24 Apr 30 2014 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's a lot here that I don't understand, but chief among the factors that confuse me is this: why did he record it? Did he think it would prove he was justified? Did he want a keepsake? What possible purpose did that serve?
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#25 Apr 30 2014 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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#26 Apr 30 2014 at 4:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
but chief among the factors that confuse me is this: why did he record it?
That was a pretty big question for me too. You'd think if he wanted evidence that the killings were justified he'd would have been more mindful of what he was saying, knowing that he was being recorded, and that it would be used in court one day. Or maybe he was just really really out of touch with reality, which I wouldn't be surprised about either.
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