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#1 Jan 30 2014 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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Maine is considering a pay-it forward system of tuition at it's state universities and colleges similar to a pilot program that Oregon has recently implemented..

Pay It Forward FAQ wrote:
Pay It Forward would create a dedicated fund that would eliminate tuition and debt. Students attend school tuition-free, and then begin contributing a small, fixed percentage into a common education fund. Pay It Forward isn’t paying back a loan, it’s paying forward a guarantee of free higher education to future students.

Pay It Forward is a better deal for students. Under income-based repayment, most students would be paying 10% of their income for 10 years. Under the Pay It Forward system, a graduate with a Bachelor’s would pay 3% of their income into the fund for 20 years (still a shorter time than it takes many graduates to become debt-free).


What do you think?

Would it work and be sustainable?

It would alleviate some of the pressure on low income students to pay for college up front, but assumes, no in fact, it banks on students finding some sort of non-minimum wage paying job.
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#2 Jan 30 2014 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
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I think it has a significant free rider problem at the low end and an equally significant enforcement problem at the high salary end.

What would alleviate some of the pressure on low income students would be government funded higher education.
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#3 Jan 30 2014 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

What would alleviate some of the pressure on low income students would be government funded higher education.
Only under the guise of a 'draft'.
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#4 Jan 30 2014 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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So paying for education through a tax. Why beat around the bush? Just make higher education government funded. Canada is no better in this department. It's kind of silly that we provide education through highschool and then say "Good luck increasing your education to employable levels!" and drop people like a bad habit.
#5 Jan 30 2014 at 10:18 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
So paying for education through a tax. Why beat around the bush? Just make higher education government funded. Canada is no better in this department. It's kind of silly that we provide education through highschool and then say "Good luck increasing your education to employable levels!" and drop people like a bad habit.


Because tax subsidized higher education is a tax on the poor (and very rich) for the benefit of the middle class. This apportions cost to the users of the system.

This system's major issues are the one's smash mentioned as well as misaligning incentive structures in the edu market.

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 11:20am by Timelordwho
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#6 Jan 30 2014 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
So paying for education through a tax. Why beat around the bush? Just make higher education government funded. Canada is no better in this department. It's kind of silly that we provide education through highschool and then say "Good luck increasing your education to employable levels!" and drop people like a bad habit.


Because tax subsidized higher education is a tax on the poor (and very rich) for the benefit of the middle class. This apportions cost to the users of the system.

This system's major issues are the one's smash mentioned as well as misaligning incentive structures in the edu market.

Public unis and colleges are already subsidized.

The monthly student loan payment with a set amount supposedly dissuades students from going into the lower paying careers as they can't pay make their monthly payments. This is supposed to alleviate that. Though they're still tied into a long term financial obligation.

Also it would keep a good chunk of the education dollars out of the big banks coffers by eliminating student loans.

But yeah, it seems pretty inefficiency, open to abuse and I question whether or not it would be self-sustaining.
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#7 Jan 30 2014 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
I'm determined to pay off my loans in three years, maybe even two if I really push myself. Having 3% of my wages garnished would let me keep the rest of that money without interest and invest it or something. I'd actually be okay with that.

As it is, the 6.25% interest rate I've got on my grad student loans is looming over me and I'm making $1000 payments a month just to make it go away. (Undergrad is 2% interest and so those are getting the bare minimum each month til the grad student ones are done.)

Edited, Jan 30th 2014 11:53am by Catwho
#8 Jan 30 2014 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
What do you think?
I think the money would be better spent providing tax incentives to increase job opportunities for the people who got educated already, rather than throwing more hay on a broken wagon.

Elinda wrote:
Would it work and be sustainable?
I don't know, but apparently I get to find out. Smiley: glare
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#9 Jan 30 2014 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think this is the answer. The answer is to lower education costs (a lot of colleges are a little ridiculous) and stop predatory lending practices. The reasons people are in debt are because a lot of schools cost far more than their degrees are worth, and interest rates on a lot of loans are out of control. If you look up Sallie Mae all you will find are horror stories of 10k loans turning into 60k nightmares. They are the worst, but they aren't the only ones.
#10 Jan 30 2014 at 11:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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The monthly student loan payment with a set amount supposedly dissuades students from going into the lower paying careers as they can't pay make their monthly payments. This is supposed to alleviate that.

Right, but of course it doesn't. It probably does encourage people to put loans into deferment and get a Masters in basket weaving or whatever the "lower paying careers" are supposed to be (non STEM things we assume). Which may be good or bad for society depending on your view of education.

Here's the problem: No one is becoming an electrical engineer instead of a poet, or since it's Maine, let's say a forest ranger or whatever, because the loan burden is too much. They might be doing so because of perceived career earning potential. This wouldn't change that.
Just give poor kids GRANTS to go to public universities. That solves the problem, and it's cheaper than the clusterfuck of interlocking guaranteed public/private loans that Financial aid is now. Stop guaranteeing loans for for profit universities. Stop guaranteeing loans for private universities, come to that. Top tier universities already make sure very talented kids can go. If your parents make $15k a year and you get into Harvard, guess what, you're going to go to Harvard for free. That sh*tty middling private universities don't isn't a reason to guarantee loans for them. The world can live without Bard or Swathmore being protected against loan defaults.


Edited, Jan 30th 2014 12:32pm by Smasharoo
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#11 Jan 30 2014 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Timelordwho wrote:
Because tax subsidized higher education is a tax on the poor (and very rich) for the benefit of the middle class. This apportions cost to the users of the system.


Which will be everyone going forward if it's government funded...I fail to see the issue, it's a win all around. Education costs per student come down due to volume economics so it's a cheaper system per capita, all students are given equal opportunity despite their financial class and fresh graduates aren't saddled with soul crushing debt right when they need to start looking for work. You end up with a better educated population for fewer dollars and graduates who can focus on being good little consumers instead of scraping to make debt payments for overpriced services that are all but required for current employment standards. It's the ultimate economic boost. The only people it doesn't benefit are the banks as the funds they would be receiving will now be spread across other businesses.

30 years ago when jobs required lower skill levels it made sense to only cover education up to high school as that's all the majority of jobs required so much of the financial cost post secondary would have been wasted dollars, that's no longer the case in the developed world.
#12 Jan 30 2014 at 11:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer this, why don't we give more targeted incentives? You know, like have the government forgive 25% of your student loan debt if you get a degree in mathematics or something?
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#13 Jan 30 2014 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
someproteinguy wrote:
Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer this, why don't we give more targeted incentives? You know, like have the government forgive 25% of your student loan debt if you get a degree in mathematics or something?


They already do. Agree to teach in an inner city school for a few years or join the Army or work as a pro bono trial lawyer.

Take the lawyers though. Your student loans after 4 years of law school are $100K.

Do you: a) Agree to work in the DA's office for 5 years at $40K/year to get your loans forgiven or b) Get a job as a corporate lawyer for $100/k a year and make 2.5 times as much and pay off your loans on your own? The only people who go the DA route were mediocre to begin with and couldn't land the cushy corporate law gig.
#14 Jan 30 2014 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Maybe someone who knows more than me can answer this, why don't we give more targeted incentives? You know, like have the government forgive 25% of your student loan debt if you get a degree in mathematics or something?

We do. Nexa, for instance, because she works in public higher education will have her student loan balance forgiven after 10 years of income based repayment. She makes enough money that it's not a magical gift or anything, but still worth her perusing.
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#15 Jan 30 2014 at 11:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Ahh ok. I was vaguely aware programs like those existed. Would be nice to see more of that.

I'm all for people choosing things for themselves, but it be nice as a society to have our education system better meet our needs.
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#16 Jan 30 2014 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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We have some tuition incentives to try and keep the youngsters in Maine after they learn about the wonderful world of Away.

They don't really work.
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#17 Jan 30 2014 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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We have some tuition incentives to try and keep the youngsters in Maine after they learn about the wonderful world of Away.

There's a hell of a blueberry science program over at Orono.

Really. There is.
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#18 Jan 30 2014 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
We have some tuition incentives to try and keep the youngsters in Maine after they learn about the wonderful world of Away.

There's a hell of a blueberry science program over at Orono.

Really. There is.

U Maine in Preque Isle has potato scholarships.
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#19 Jan 30 2014 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
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Man, I wish my undergrad loans were at 2%. To be fair, I have something like $4 or 5k in 2% loans, but most of it is >4%.
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#20 Jan 30 2014 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
Elinda wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
We have some tuition incentives to try and keep the youngsters in Maine after they learn about the wonderful world of Away.

There's a hell of a blueberry science program over at Orono.

Really. There is.

U Maine in Preque Isle has potato scholarships.


I think UGA offers them for poultry science, all the way up to getting your PhD in turkeys.
#21 Jan 30 2014 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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I would pay more for a basket woven by someone with a PhD in basket weaving. Just sayin'.
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#22 Jan 30 2014 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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I would pay more for a basket woven by someone with a PhD in basket weaving. Just sayin'.

There have been a spate of recent studies that indicate that once you get past Bachelors' degrees there isn't much of an income disparity between STEM fields and anything else. It's more a story of entry level salaries for people who don't go to grad school. (still important, of course, that's still most people by a wildly wide margin)
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#23 Jan 30 2014 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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My field will pretty much break down into two groups:

1) Has a Ph.D. and can run their own lab.

2) Everyone else.

Ph.D. with no work experience is a total miss until you can (assuming you can) slog through some lean years, get a good list of papers under your belt, and can secure your own funding sources. Masters, well you pretty much might as well have just started working. You'll get a bit more on average, but it's hardly enough to justify the extra schooling. Bachelors and couple of years of job experience will get you the same job. It all comes down to what skills you have, and how many years you've been developing said skills.

Unless you're going to try and shoot the moon, and are sure you can do it, go get some quality job experience on that resume quickly. I'm not sure how you get hired these days without it. No one wants to hire someone who's got a list of classes they took and a single publication with their name shoved somewhere in the middle.
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#24 Jan 30 2014 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Ph.D. with no work experience is a total miss until you can (assuming you can) slog through some lean years, get a good list of papers under your belt, and can secure your own funding sources. Masters, well you pretty much might as well have just started working. You'll get a bit more on average, but it's hardly enough to justify the extra schooling. Bachelors and couple of years of job experience will get you the same job. It all comes down to what skills you have, and how many years you've been developing said skills.


Yeah, that's every field. Possible exception for elite B-School MBAs, but that's about it.
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#25 Jan 30 2014 at 2:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok, that works, cool and such. My knowledge admittedly doesn't extend far beyond my own field.
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#26 Jan 30 2014 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
Every single person in my office has a master's degree in something. Some from big schools, some from little schools, and one guy from U of Phoenix, but it's like the bare minimum my company will accept for the indoor desk jobs.

Yesterday I realized that I'd gotten my master's degree to spend three hours testing websites by hitting the backward and forward buttons for three hours straight. Smiley: lol
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