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US Credit rating downgraded to AA+Follow

#1 Aug 05 2011 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
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Forbes has the formal announcement linked on someone's blog here:

Standard & Poor wrote:
– We have lowered our long-term sovereign credit rating on the United States of America to ‘AA+’ from ‘AAA’ and affirmed the ‘A-1+’ short-term rating.

– We have also removed both the short- and long-term ratings from CreditWatch negative.

– The downgrade reflects our opinion that the fiscal consolidation plan that Congress and the Administration recently agreed to falls short of what, in our view, would be necessary to stabilize the government’s medium-term debt dynamics.

– More broadly, the downgrade reflects our view that the effectiveness, stability, and predictability of American policymaking and political institutions have weakened at a time of ongoing fiscal and economic challenges to a degree more than we envisioned when we assigned a negative outlook to the rating on April 18, 2011.

– Since then, we have changed our view of the difficulties in bridging the gulf between the political parties over fiscal policy, which makes us pessimistic about the capacity of Congress and the Administration to be able to leverage their agreement this week into a broader fiscal consolidation plan that stabilizes the government’s debt dynamics any time soon.

– The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the long-term rating to ‘AA’ within the next two years if we see that less reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case.


Specifically, they are concerned about the GOP and Tea Party pledge to never ever under any circumstances no matter how @#%^ed the economy gets raise taxes. The "falling short" of the deal reached for the debt crisis resolution is half that it doesn't have any plans to raise additional revenues, i.e., it doesn't raise taxes, and half that the cuts to benefits programs like Social Security are too vague.

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 9:15pm by catwho
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#2 Aug 05 2011 at 7:08 PM Rating: Default
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Fox had a quick blurb up from an anonymous S&P spokesman about how they botched the model and it may actually go down to AA, not AA+. But it's gone now, so take it for what it's worth.
#3 Aug 05 2011 at 7:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Good thing Grover Norquist has more power over the GOP than the Speaker of the House or else they might have passed that "grand compromise" Boehner & Obama were discussing for $4 trillion and change like S&P was requiring to keep the nation's rating.

Cue Gbaji to start hollering about how such a "compromise" only ever existed on the "Far left liberal blogs!" because he never heard of it.
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#4 Aug 05 2011 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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catwho wrote:
Specifically, they are concerned about the GOP and Tea Party pledge to never ever under any circumstances no matter how @#%^ed the economy gets raise taxes. The "falling short" of the deal reached for the debt crisis resolution is that it doesn't have any plans to raise additional revenues, i.e., it doesn't raise taxes.


That's a pretty exceptionally narrow interpretation of what they actually said. It certainly wasn't "specifically" what they said at all. What they did say was this:

Quote:
Standard & Poor’s takes no position on the mix of spending and revenue measures that Congress and the Administration might conclude is appropriate for putting the U.S.’s finances on a sustainable footing.


They include not allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire when calculating future revenue potential, but that's not the same as saying "We're downgrading you because you didn't raise taxes". The much bigger effect is spending, not taxes. Even if we did allow the Bush tax cuts to expire, not just on the rich, but on everyone, it would still not come close to fixing our current debt problems. Only spending cuts can do that.
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#5 Aug 05 2011 at 7:29 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Good thing Grover Norquist has more power over the GOP than the Speaker of the House or else they might have passed that "grand compromise" Boehner & Obama were discussing for $4 trillion and change like S&P was requiring to keep the nation's rating.


You're kidding, right? The one where Obama presented something that the GOP would never agree to, and they... wait for it... didn't agree to it. WTF?

Quote:
Cue Gbaji to start hollering about how such a "compromise" only ever existed on the "Far left liberal blogs!" because he never heard of it.


I never said I never heard of it Joph. You and I discussed the damn thing over a month ago! What I said was that only people on far left liberal blogs thought this deal was something the GOP would or should consider. Isn't it strange that your side keeps doing this? You present some plan and then run around insisting that the GOP should love it because you've changed the labels on things to mean the exact opposite of what the GOP actually wants.


I mean, the Recovery act had as many tax cuts as spending increases, right? Why wouldn't the GOP vote for it!? Lol!
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#6 Aug 05 2011 at 7:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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huh. "A mathematical error discovered late Friday by Treasury Department officials has thrown into limbo — at least temporarily — plans by ratings firm Standard & Poor’s to downgrade the top-notch AAA credit rating the U.S. has held for 70 years, people familiar with the matter said. "
http://blogs.wsj.com/marketbeat/2011/08/05/u-s-debt-rating-in-limbo-as-treasury-finds-math-mistake-by-sp-in-downgrade-warning/
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#7 Aug 05 2011 at 7:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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#8 Aug 05 2011 at 7:54 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Good thing Grover Norquist has more power over the GOP than the Speaker of the House or else they might have passed that "grand compromise" Boehner & Obama were discussing for $4 trillion and change like S&P was requiring to keep the nation's rating.


You're kidding, right? The one where Obama presented something that the GOP would never agree to, and they... wait for it... didn't agree to it. WTF?

Quote:
Cue Gbaji to start hollering about how such a "compromise" only ever existed on the "Far left liberal blogs!" because he never heard of it.


I never said I never heard of it Joph. You and I discussed the damn thing over a month ago! What I said was that only people on far left liberal blogs thought this deal was something the GOP would or should consider. Isn't it strange that your side keeps doing this? You present some plan and then run around insisting that the GOP should love it because you've changed the labels on things to mean the exact opposite of what the GOP actually wants.


I mean, the Recovery act had as many tax cuts as spending increases, right? Why wouldn't the GOP vote for it!? Lol!


Actually, last week the dude on Hardball was talking with one of Reagan's and H.W.'s policy advisers, Bruce Bartlett, who was upset the GOP didn't take the deal. "The Republicans keep saying the tax cuts are the key to prosperity. The 2000s are evidence that that is not true. We had booming economies in the 1980s and ’90s. If we went back to those taxes, we would be better off. I don’t see think any question we would have positive economic effects if we went back to the tax rates.... I think at this point, there’s nothing that can pass the House of Representatives. I think a good chunk of the Republican caucus is either stupid, crazy, ignorant or craven cowards, who are desperately afraid of the tea party people, and rightly so."
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#9 Aug 05 2011 at 8:36 PM Rating: Decent
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A guy who was fired by Bush and then later wrote a book called "How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy" is to be taken as an authority on what the GOP should like or dislike?

Oh wait! Read more of his wiki page. Lol:

Quote:
In Bartlett's latest book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, he embraces Keynesian ideas, stating that while supply-side economics was appropriate for the 1970s and 1980s, supply side arguments do not fit contemporary conditions.



Classic case of an economist getting booted and then running to the other side and bashing his former bosses in order to sell some books and get appearances on TV shows (like Hardball). I love how he starts out saying that Bush betrayed the Reagan legacy and the progresses to saying that Reaganomics was a failure. Um... what?

I put about zero credibility on this guy, and even less if you're trying to suggest that he speaks in any way for what the GOP should or should not agree to politically.


Way to continue the trend of liberals trying to tell conservatives what they're supposed to believe though! Next you'll try to tell me that fiscal conservatism really means we should be willing to raise taxes to pay off our debts! Yay!!!



OH! And it's also really telling that this is what Hardball attempts to sell to its audience as a conservative viewpoint. Maybe you should stop watching MSNBC?

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 7:38pm by gbaji
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#10 Aug 05 2011 at 8:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
You and I discussed the damn thing over a month ago!

Wrong agreement, shortcake Smiley: laugh
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Senator Toomey (R-PA) wrote:
In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something he wanted to get done, just because the president wanted to do it
#11 Aug 05 2011 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
A guy who was fired by Bush and then later wrote a book called "How George W. Bush Bankrupted America and Betrayed the Reagan Legacy" is to be taken as an authority on what the GOP should like or dislike?

Oh wait! Read more of his wiki page. Lol:

Quote:
In Bartlett's latest book, The New American Economy: The Failure of Reaganomics and a New Way Forward, he embraces Keynesian ideas, stating that while supply-side economics was appropriate for the 1970s and 1980s, supply side arguments do not fit contemporary conditions.



Classic case of an economist getting booted and then running to the other side and bashing his former bosses in order to sell some books and get appearances on TV shows (like Hardball). I love how he starts out saying that Bush betrayed the Reagan legacy and the progresses to saying that Reaganomics was a failure. Um... what?

I put about zero credibility on this guy, and even less if you're trying to suggest that he speaks in any way for what the GOP should or should not agree to politically.


Way to continue the trend of liberals trying to tell conservatives what they're supposed to believe though! Next you'll try to tell me that fiscal conservatism really means we should be willing to raise taxes to pay off our debts! Yay!!!



OH! And it's also really telling that this is what Hardball attempts to sell to its audience as a conservative viewpoint. Maybe you should stop watching MSNBC?

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 7:38pm by gbaji


I don't watch television. The news clip was linked to my FB page by someone.
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#12 Aug 05 2011 at 9:19 PM Rating: Default
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catwho wrote:
I don't watch television. The news clip was linked to my FB page by someone.


Then tell your friends to watch more than just MSNBC. Or at least recognize that about 90% of people labeled as conservatives on that station (especially Matthew's show) are picked because they can be labeled as conservatives but are really going to say exactly what their liberal audience wants to hear.


It's just that I see this whole "liberals trying to say what conservatives should like" bit all the time. It's like one of their patented tricks that I'm surprised still works on anyone. You'd think that after a certain amount of time the supposedly educated and intelligent liberal audience would realize that maybe if nearly every single conservative they see on their favorite news sources who happen to be saying what they agree with disagree with every conservative they see everywhere else, instead of concluding that this one guy has his finger on the pulse about what it means to be conservative and everyone else is wrong, maybe it's really the other way around?


Just a thought to ponder. Kinda like Joph up there still insisting that the GOP should have agreed to some deal he thought was great. The very fact that a liberal is the one saying that conservatives should have agreed to it ought to be the first clue that something is amiss. At least an intelligent person would conclude that, right?
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#13 Aug 05 2011 at 9:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Kinda like Joph up there still insisting that the GOP should have agreed to some deal he thought was great.

I never said I thought it was great. I said Standards & Poors was demanding a deal for the same amount in order to avoid a downgrade and Boehner was unable to secure it because he's a weak and largely incompetent Speaker when it comes to leading his own party, allowing major things to be pushed off and rejected to appease some simple-minded screams about taxes and party purity.

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 10:50pm by Jophiel
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In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something he wanted to get done, just because the president wanted to do it
#14 Aug 05 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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This might just be crazy, but it also makes more than a little sense to me: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2011/07/is-standard-and-poor’s-manipulating-us-debt-rating-to-escape-liability-for-the-mortgage-crisis.html
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#15 Aug 06 2011 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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The only thing that is shocking to me is that the rating isn't lower.
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#16 Aug 06 2011 at 1:46 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:


wow, that`s an interesting take on this.
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#17 Aug 06 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Excellent
Ya, no one in the upper levels of management in either politics or economics appears to be competent.

How this is surprising to anyone outside of genuine "tea party" members is beyond me.
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#18 Aug 06 2011 at 4:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:

Some people here might want to sign the two online petitions in this article.
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#19 Aug 06 2011 at 7:23 AM Rating: Good
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Aripyanfar wrote:
Some people here might want to sign the two online petitions in this article.

I hate to be the downer Ari, but unfortunately online petitions are entirely worthless.
#20 Aug 06 2011 at 8:23 AM Rating: Default
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apparently China is jumping all over this already.

(yes i know lolyahoo but its where my email is and was the first article I read today.)

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/u-loses-aaa-rating-g7-finance-ministers-meet-052230104.html
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#21 Aug 06 2011 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't see what the big fuss is all about, it's still an "A". Smiley: glare
#22 Aug 06 2011 at 9:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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#23 Aug 06 2011 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Its like having a credit score go from 900 to 700, sure you still have fairly strong credit, but people see a 200 point drop and consider you being a liability, and with places like Canada, Australia, etc offering a more stable and prospective investment losing 200 points on a credit score could be a big deal as far as foreign investment is concerned. This will only get worse if the world economic leaders decide to use another currency as the standard in year to come. With the AUD CAD Euro Pound all making a strong case.

While it is to early to tell, with other competitive nations moving forward, and having alread large in part righted their "ships" following the recession, unless the US fixes its massive issues, this downgrade is only the start.

But hey you had a good 200 year run, and most empires peak and decline in this time frame, welcome to being UK V2.0.
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#24 Aug 06 2011 at 10:05 AM Rating: Default
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rdmcandie wrote:
Its like having a credit score go from 900 to 700, sure you still have fairly strong credit, but people see a 200 point drop and consider you being a liability, and with places like Canada, Australia, etc offering a more stable and prospective investment losing 200 points on a credit score could be a big deal as far as foreign investment is concerned. This will only get worse if the world economic leaders decide to use another currency as the standard in year to come. With the AUD CAD Euro Pound all making a strong case.

While it is to early to tell, with other competitive nations moving forward, and having alread large in part righted their "ships" following the recession, unless the US fixes its massive issues, this downgrade is only the start.

But hey you had a good 200 year run, and most empires peak and decline in this time frame, welcome to being UK V2.0.



I know there's a difference.... wasn't completely serious..
#25 Aug 06 2011 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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From USA to USB?

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#26 Aug 06 2011 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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catwho wrote:
I don't watch television. The news clip was linked to my FB page by someone.


See, even catwho gets her news from somewhere!
#27 Aug 06 2011 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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From USA to USB?


At least we're not technologically inept anymore.
#28 Aug 06 2011 at 11:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Bluetooth is better =P
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#29 Aug 06 2011 at 12:04 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, several large nations require their cash investments to be AAA rated. By law they will now sell off all their US dollars, and put it elsewhere. Don't know how that's going to play out. Historically he US government likes to fiddle with its dollar to keep it high, even in the face of recessions, which is when other nations usually let their currency dive, which makes exports from those countries very attractive, which grows their own domestic jobs, trade surpluses, and helps the nation out of recession.

You might find this list of rankings of GDP interesting. GDP.

In 2010, the European Union topped out at 16 million million. US was next at 14.6 million million. China and Japan are a long way third and fourth at 5.8 and 5.4 million million respectively. The list starts counting member nations of the EU separately, I'll ignore them. The UK, 2.2 million million. Canada 1.6, India 1.5, Russia 1.4, Australia 1.2 (bizarrely, since we only have less than 2% of the world's population, comes in 13th. It's because we're literally selling our country out from under us in the form of ore exports.) Mexico 1.039 million million goods and services in a year, world's number 14th, not bad for a country routinely perceived as a basket case.
And the last country with over a million million GDP in a year is South Korea at 1.007

So now we have to cross reference with national credit ratings to find where world cash is going to flee to. The EU would he the obvious short term inheritor of de facto World Superpower as America drifts, if it wasn't so crippled by the Global Financial Crisis, with member nations still staggering around defaulting n stuff.

Edited, Aug 6th 2011 2:08pm by Aripyanfar
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#30 Aug 06 2011 at 10:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Ya, no one in the upper levels of management in either politics or economics appears to be competent.

How this is surprising to anyone outside of genuine "tea party" members is beyond me.

All the more reason to ensure that those incompetents have less control (read: spending authority) over the lives (read: money) of ordinary citizens, MIRITE?!

QED: the Tea Party was right all along!
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#31 Aug 06 2011 at 10:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
The EU would he the obvious short term inheritor of de facto World Superpower as America drifts...

Try not to sound so hopeful. We're a long way still from passing the baton.
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#32 Aug 06 2011 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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catwho wrote:
Specifically, they are concerned about the GOP and Tea Party pledge to never ever under any circumstances no matter how @#%^ed the economy gets raise taxes. The "falling short" of the deal reached for the debt crisis resolution is half that it doesn't have any plans to raise additional revenues, i.e., it doesn't raise taxes, and half that the cuts to benefits programs like Social Security are too vague.

Edited, Aug 5th 2011 9:15pm by catwho


Really, it sounded more to me like they were scolding both parties. Dems for not cutting more spending, GOP for not raising revenue.
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#33 Aug 06 2011 at 11:56 PM Rating: Default
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OH! And it's also really telling that this is what Hardball attempts to sell to its audience as a conservative viewpoint. Maybe you should stop watching MSNBC?


When has anyone ever tried to pass off either Hardball OR Chris Matthews as conservative? It's no secret that he's an independent liberal the way Lou Dobbs is an independent conservative. I've seen the show a hundred times and I've never seen any indication otherwise, certainly not explicitly. In fact, you'd think any knucklehead who saw the show a whole two times would figure out that Matthews is more liberal than not after he inevitably shouts down and/or laughs at a conservative guest.
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#34 Aug 07 2011 at 12:34 AM Rating: Decent
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You know what is going to happen, the new world currency marker will be the Yuan, the the chinese will let the currency float to balance the markets, and then communism will have finally beaten capitalism.
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#35 Aug 07 2011 at 1:09 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
You know what is going to happen, the new world currency marker will be the Yuan, the the chinese will let the currency float to balance the markets, and then communism will have finally beaten capitalism.


If China becomes the world's financial super-power doesn't that mean that capitalism beat communism?
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#36 Aug 07 2011 at 1:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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China will let the Yuan float like it does right now. Smiley: wink2
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#37 Aug 07 2011 at 1:59 AM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
Aripyanfar wrote:
The EU would he the obvious short term inheritor of de facto World Superpower as America drifts...

Try not to sound so hopeful. We're a long way still from passing the baton.

I should have been more specific. There's economic power, and military power, and while they influence each other, they are not necessarily identical. I was envisaging the Euro taking over the role of de Facto world reserve currency if the US dollar went into freefall... if member nations weren't having so much trouble in the EU right now.

In the very long term, If China manages to grow it's economy to Developed status, by sheer weight of population numbers I would have thought the Chinese Renminbi (RMB) would take over as the de facto world currency. But there are complicating factors there if their Totalitarian government hasn't relaxed considerably by then. So I have no idea how things will play out on the World economic stage when China hits per capita GDP parity with the USA or the EU.


Edited, Aug 7th 2011 4:15am by Aripyanfar
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#38 Aug 07 2011 at 2:11 AM Rating: Good
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Tim Anderson, Senior Lecturer in Political Economy at University of Sydney wrote:
The strong US dollar, held up artificially through its role as the world currency from the 1940s, helped the US invest abroad and carry out numerous interventions.

However, a strong dollar has also been an important element in creating the country’s chronic trade deficits: US exports became too expensive for other countries to buy. US authorities are therefore not opposed to a steady devaluation of the dollar.

The US also benefited from the large amount of foreign reserves deposited in US dollar denominated bonds, and often in New York banks.

Yet, in recent years diversification of reserves has followed diversification of trade currencies. China, after 2008, finally joined the ranks of creditors “diversifying” away from the dollar.

By late 2009, the US dollar represented only 37% of new [world] reserves, compared to a 63% average over the previous decade.

While some US economists are trying to resurrect the idea of IMF Special Drawing Rights as a new world currency, this seems unlikely.

oh, Linky.

Edited, Aug 7th 2011 4:12am by Aripyanfar
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#39 Aug 07 2011 at 3:15 AM Rating: Good
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rdmcandie wrote:
You know what is going to happen, the new world currency marker will be the Yuan, the the chinese will let the currency float to balance the markets, and then communism will have finally beaten capitalism.


Yeah ok, if the Chinese central reserve ever stops with the currency value manipulation games they are currently running, then maybe you'd have a valid idea. Which they won't, of course, since it gives them pretty powerful global trade leverage.
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#40 Aug 07 2011 at 3:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Aripyanfar wrote:
I have no idea...

Edited for brevity.

Edit: edited for spelling. Smiley: lol

Edited, Aug 7th 2011 4:30am by Demea
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#41 Aug 07 2011 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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I never get it right first time either. Smiley: glare

Edited, Aug 7th 2011 3:48pm by Aripyanfar
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<3

I don't think that reverance or respect for the dead needs the dead to be hidden from sight completely. It is the attitude that you bring, as a witness to a dead body, that matters, not the display and witnessing of a dead body, per se.
#42varusword75, Posted: Aug 08 2011 at 8:33 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#43 Aug 08 2011 at 8:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
The fact that the liberal democrats and the rinos are up in arms because they can't be bought or bribed infuriates them even more.

So you agree that Boehner is an incredibly weak Speaker. I'm not sure why you wanted to call it a "liberal lie".
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Senator Toomey (R-PA) wrote:
In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something he wanted to get done, just because the president wanted to do it
#44varusword75, Posted: Aug 08 2011 at 9:10 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Joph,
#45 Aug 08 2011 at 9:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Things are looking good for the GOP.

Mirrors in the men's room stalls?
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#46 Aug 08 2011 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Soft fur lining on the glory holes.
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#47 Aug 08 2011 at 9:20 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:
Things are looking good for the GOP.

Co-ownership of an economic downturn is a good thing? Huh.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Senator Toomey (R-PA) wrote:
In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something he wanted to get done, just because the president wanted to do it
#48 Aug 08 2011 at 9:33 AM Rating: Default
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Jophed,

Quote:
Co-ownership of an economic downturn


Try again. The democrats are completely to blame for the economy and everyone knows it. So keep on trying to place the blame anywhere but on the people who have been in charge the last 3yrs and let's see how far it gets them.

#49 Aug 08 2011 at 9:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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If you say so Smiley: smile
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Senator Toomey (R-PA) wrote:
In the end it didn't pass because we're so politicized. There were some on my side who did not want to be seen helping the president do something he wanted to get done, just because the president wanted to do it
#50 Aug 08 2011 at 10:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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But Joph, everyone knows it. Everyone.
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#51 Aug 08 2011 at 10:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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varusword75 wrote:


Try again. The democrats are completely to blame for the economy and everyone knows it. So keep on trying to place the blame anywhere but on the people who have been in charge the last 3yrs and let's see how far it gets them.

This can only mean the GOP is completely ineffective...useless, having no governmental influence at all.
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