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Violent Video Games Protected Under First AmendmentFollow

#1 Jun 27 2011 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304447804576411571732346148.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTTopStories
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WASHINGTON—The Supreme Court on Monday struck down a California law blocking minors from buying violent videogames, voting 7-2 that it violates the First Amendment.

Huzzah, and such.

The most interesting part of the story is the voting breakdown. In the majority were Scalia, Kagan, Sotomayor, Kennedy, and Ginsburg, with Roberts and Alito concurring. Dissenting were Thomas and Breyer.
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#2 Jun 27 2011 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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#3 Jun 27 2011 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
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I had heard this earlier. I'm a bit confused as I thought video games already received a rating that prohibited sales/rentals to minors. But perhaps that's only based on sexual content??

I don't think violent video games create violent kids anymore than watching the Road Runner makes one go out and buy an ACME anvil and drop it on someone's head.
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#4 Jun 27 2011 at 1:10 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda wrote:
I had heard this earlier. I'm a bit confused as I thought video games already received a rating that prohibited sales/rentals to minors.

I assumed that was more a self-policing industry thing like the MPAA's movie ratings or the old comic codes. Not enforced by law but rather but the industries so to avoid more draconian laws being pushed by upset mothers.

Being an old man, I never bothered to look into it so don't quote me.
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#5 Jun 27 2011 at 1:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I had heard this earlier. I'm a bit confused as I thought video games already received a rating that prohibited sales/rentals to minors. But perhaps that's only based on sexual content??

The content rating is performed by the games industry, but not enforced in any way by any level of government. However, most big electronics retailers have internal policies of restricting sales of mature-rated games to customers under 17.
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#6 Jun 27 2011 at 1:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda wrote:
I don't think violent video games create violent kids anymore than watching the Road Runner makes one go out and buy an ACME anvil and drop it on someone's head.
They started showing the olde Looney Toons on Cartoon Network, so out of pure nostalgia I watch the hell out of it. However, once in a while they'll show a cartoon that I absolutely LOVED as a kid, so I have it memorized, and I notice they edit out certain scenes that weren't censored before. Like the one where Daffy and Bugs are competing for applause from the audience, and at the end Daffy blows himself up. Bugs admits he can never top that, and Daffy laments that he can only do it once. Completely gone. What gets me is that while scenes like that are being removed, Seth MacFarlane goes out of his way to put more violence and blood in Family Guy episodes, which do get aired in, what appears, their entirety.

What, blowing yourself up on a TNT rigged xylophone is too realistic, but running over someone with a lawn mower in a gory mess isn't?

I'd say it has something to do with time slot. Stupid reason in the end.
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#7 Jun 27 2011 at 3:03 PM Rating: Decent
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I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.
#8 Jun 27 2011 at 3:10 PM Rating: Good
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xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.
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#9 Jun 27 2011 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

Right. Because saying "Bang, bang!" at someone is exactly the same as a realistic depiction of murder in a video game.

I'm not in favor of laws like in the OP but don't hurt your own cause by sounding retarded in its defense.
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#10 Jun 27 2011 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

Right. Because saying "Bang, bang!" at someone is exactly the same as a realistic depiction of murder in a video game.

I'm not in favor of laws like in the OP but don't hurt your own cause by sounding retarded in its defense.

Perhaps not, but it does foster the sort of unhealthy views of superiority towards racial & ethnic minorities that could lead to acts of violence in later stages of life.

Kumbaya.
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#11 Jun 27 2011 at 3:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not if you make sure that the Indians Indigenous People of the Americas win exactly 50% of the time.


Duh.
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#12 Jun 27 2011 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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If they won 50% of the time, then it wouldn't be AMERICAN.

Edited, Jun 27th 2011 5:35pm by lolgaxe
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#13 Jun 27 2011 at 3:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

Right. Because saying "Bang, bang!" at someone is exactly the same as a realistic depiction of murder in a video game.

I'm not in favor of laws like in the OP but don't hurt your own cause by sounding retarded in its defense.


What realistic depictions of murder? Like, which game are you thinking of?
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#14 Jun 27 2011 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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lolgaxe wrote:
If they won 50% of the time, then it wouldn't be AMERICAN.


That looks like Ame Can on the Zam.com skin. Just for the record.
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#15 Jun 27 2011 at 3:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

Right. Because saying "Bang, bang!" at someone is exactly the same as a realistic depiction of murder in a video game.

I'm not in favor of laws like in the OP but don't hurt your own cause by sounding retarded in its defense.

One "teaches" you how to point and pull a trigger, while the other "teaches" you what happens when you point and pull the trigger.
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#16 Jun 27 2011 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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Belkira the Tulip wrote:
lolgaxe wrote:
If they won 50% of the time, then it wouldn't be AMERICAN.
That looks like Ame Can on the Zam.com skin. Just for the record.
Didn't look that great on the FFXI skin, either.
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#17 Jun 27 2011 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think this is a good thing too. It's always been a stupid argument. It should always be up to the parent.

My son is 9. He plays CoD. We allow him to play it with the graphics and language on, and he's also allowed to play online. But the Xbox is right here in the living room. We can monitor what he's seeing and hearing and explain anything that might seem questionable. We're doinitrite.

The comparison to Looney Toons is right. I grew up on those, watched them religiously and so far I've only painted one dog's tongue red.
#18 Jun 27 2011 at 4:28 PM Rating: Good
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What did you paint it with???
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#19 Jun 27 2011 at 4:49 PM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.


Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.
#20 Jun 27 2011 at 5:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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#21 Jun 28 2011 at 6:50 AM Rating: Good
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Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.


Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.

You make hemorrhoids seem tolerable.

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#22Kachi, Posted: Jul 01 2011 at 3:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) There's pretty sufficient evidence to suggest that violent video games contribute to childhood and adolescent aggression. Probably most people here are familiar with the old Bobo doll experiment, I would think. Same principle, really.
#23 Jul 01 2011 at 3:51 AM Rating: Default
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Anger is perfectly natural and vital to a healthy population, too.

Also, there's tons of positive stuff to say about violence in video games; it serves as a great basis for a set, indeed many sets, of game mechanics that are fundamentally enjoyable.
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#24 Jul 01 2011 at 6:05 AM Rating: Good
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A good ruling, I think. Not so much because of the direct outcome, but because of the precedent set.

The aggression argument was a weak one; with as much conjecture and assumption as fact. No viable case was made for why video games deserve to be treated differently than other mediums.
#25 Jul 01 2011 at 6:24 AM Rating: Decent
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Kachi wrote:
There's pretty sufficient evidence to suggest that violent video games contribute to childhood and adolescent aggression. Probably most people here are familiar with the old Bobo doll experiment, I would think. Same principle, really.

I don't feel very strongly about it purely because I think it's parents rather than stores that keep violent games away from kids. But I do think it's @#%^ed up that our society (in the U.S., at least) treats sex like it's such a taboo when everything about sex is completely natural and vital to a healthy population, but violence is no big deal even though there's really nothing positive to say about it.

I understand it's the reverse in some countries.
I don't doubt that some kids who play violent video games will exhibit violent traits themselves. However, most kids - not so much. I'm not so sure about the cause and effect of entertainment spurred violence. Perhaps some kids show more aggressive behavior after 5 hours in front of a PS3, simply because they've been 5 hours in front of a PS3.

I've never really looked at any studies though.

I do agree that our societies dealing with sex is often downright puritanical.
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#26Kachi, Posted: Jul 01 2011 at 4:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Part of that is just a desensitization to violence that we have ourselves. For example, when we think of accusations like "video games cause children to be violent" we're often imagining something far more atrocious than what we consider "normal" child violence, like play-fighting (even when it's unwelcome), tantrum violence, and bullying (to include relational violence). It's not as though these children generally go out and commit vicious assaults-- rather, they have little skirmishes, they bully, etc... things that we adults tend to dismiss as normal child behavior, but which is demonstrably harmful to children and society.
#27nonwto, Posted: Jul 01 2011 at 5:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) All violent media is actually proven to desensitize you to is other violent media. I know this newfangled concept of "violence" is shocking to some, but I don't think it's sudden, unprecedented advent has much do with video games.
#28 Jul 01 2011 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
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Maybe we should bring back gladiators, so we can just remove these stupid discussions.
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#29 Jul 01 2011 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I've never really looked at any studies though.
They're pretty poorly done.
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#30 Jul 01 2011 at 11:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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I took a quick look at that study and laughed. Unfortunately the pdf is locked so I can't copy and past, but the top right side of page 8 briefly describes a pretty ridiculous methodology.

The authors criticize the conclusiveness of some studies in that the amount of violence varied was too small, and thus showing a negligible effect. That the studies show the equivalent of consuming an ounce of vodka versus no vodka, and since only an ounce doesn't inhibit one much then vodka must not impair your mental faculties. This is a reasonable criticism. However, to work around this they went and personally rated each video game on how violent they felt it was, which then--whadayaknow--proved exactly what they suspected.
#31 Jul 02 2011 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Maybe we should bring back gladiators, so we can just remove these stupid discussions.

This has always been my argument. Since when is violence a new thing? Public draw-and-quarter might be another nice thing also.
#32 Jul 02 2011 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
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Allegory wrote:
I took a quick look at that study and laughed. Unfortunately the pdf is locked so I can't copy and past, but the top right side of page 8 briefly describes a pretty ridiculous methodology.

The authors criticize the conclusiveness of some studies in that the amount of violence varied was too small, and thus showing a negligible effect. That the studies show the equivalent of consuming an ounce of vodka versus no vodka, and since only an ounce doesn't inhibit one much then vodka must not impair your mental faculties. This is a reasonable criticism. However, to work around this they went and personally rated each video game on how violent they felt it was, which then--whadayaknow--proved exactly what they suspected.


Looks like they did so using some "unusual" criteria, as well. They criticize the use of Sonic the Hedgehog as a sample of a non-violent game, saying that it is inherently violent because Sonic "kills" his enemies (and by "throwing fireballs at them" no less Smiley: dubious). As I recall it, Sonic destroyed the robot casements that cute little bunny rabbits and squirrels were being kept in, allowing them to hop away to freedom.

I'm not saying that the game wasn't violent (it is, of course, albeit marginally). But the authors sure didn't do themselves any favors by fundamentally misunderstanding the games that they're criticizing.
#33 Jul 02 2011 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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MoebiusLord wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.


Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.

You make hemorrhoids seem tolerable.



I have that same feeling about people that can't be bothered to know the difference between two completely different words.
#34 Jul 02 2011 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Maybe we should bring back gladiators, so we can just remove these stupid discussions.

This has always been my argument.
Yea, but are you serious? I am. I want some gladiators.
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#35 Jul 02 2011 at 5:41 PM Rating: Good
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Maybe we should bring back gladiators, so we can just remove these stupid discussions.

This has always been my argument.
Yea, but are you serious? I am. I want some gladiators.

I don't know, maybe. I might watch some gladiators.
#36 Jul 03 2011 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Let's see what John Stewart says about this..

http://www.hulu.com/watch/255272/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart-moral-kombat

I saw kids playing this game at the barbershop while I was getting a hair cut. I was kind of surprised that their parents allowed them to do play. It is a good game though.
#37 Jul 03 2011 at 10:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Almalieque wrote:
His name is spelled correctly in the link because it's spelled correctly in the title of every show. If you were anyone else I'd wonder how you could be that dense.
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#38 Jul 03 2011 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Nadenu wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Maybe we should bring back gladiators, so we can just remove these stupid discussions.

This has always been my argument.
Yea, but are you serious? I am. I want some gladiators.

I don't know, maybe. I might watch some gladiators.


Screenshot


Ugly...do you like movies about gladiators?
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#39 Jul 03 2011 at 11:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totally. I may feel differently about it were it real though. Maybe.
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#40 Jul 03 2011 at 4:00 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
His name is spelled correctly in the link because it's spelled correctly in the title of every show. If you were anyone else I'd wonder how you could be that dense.


Ah, silly me. How can anyone make that mistake? Adding an "h" in Jon? That was uncalled for, making his name sound all funny and different.
#41 Jul 03 2011 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.
Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.

You make hemorrhoids seem tolerable.
I have that same feeling about people that can't be bothered to know the difference between two completely different words.
He probably was thinking about Zantac.
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#42 Jul 03 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Duke Ikkian wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.
Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.

You make hemorrhoids seem tolerable.
I have that same feeling about people that can't be bothered to know the difference between two completely different words.
He probably was thinking about Zantac.


I'm sure he was. That doesn't make him any less wrong.
#43 Jul 03 2011 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Totally. I may feel differently about it were it real though. Maybe.


If regulated correctly, I could definitely see a market for brutal gladiatorial fights.
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#44 Jul 05 2011 at 12:51 AM Rating: Good
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Turin wrote:
Duke Ikkian wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
Turin wrote:
MoebiusLord wrote:
xantav wrote:
I love how the people who are always going "Video games are making kids killers" are of the right age to have played cowboys and indians as children, pointing guns and shooting at each other.

I love how you named yourself after an antacid.
Um, he didn't. There is no antacid currently on the market called Xantav.

You make hemorrhoids seem tolerable.
I have that same feeling about people that can't be bothered to know the difference between two completely different words.
He probably was thinking about Zantac.


I'm sure he was. That doesn't make him any less wrongamusing.

#45 Jul 06 2011 at 1:35 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
His name is spelled correctly in the link because it's spelled correctly in the title of every show. If you were anyone else I'd wonder how you could be that dense.


I thought we agreed to encourage the practice of Alma limiting his posts to snippets from Stewart and Colbert.
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#46 Jul 06 2011 at 5:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timelordwho wrote:
Uglysasquatch, Mercenary Major wrote:
Totally. I may feel differently about it were it real though. Maybe.


If regulated correctly, I could definitely see a market for brutal gladiatorial fights.

Even in an extremely silly hypothetical, you still can't leave the free market alone. Smiley: lol
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#47 Jul 07 2011 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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Story in NPR today.

In a nutshell a study was done with college-aged kids. Some played 'violent' games, some played non-voilent games. Then the students did an activity where they were to blast others with loud noises. They student could control the type of noise and the volume.

Apparently the kids that had been playing the violent video games were more aggressive in shooting people with noise.

Another researcher, interpreted the behaviors a bit differently. Defining the behaviors as minor acts of aggression and compared it to little kids sticking their tongues out at each other.

I guess I more with the second viewpoint. I don't think shooting somewhat with loud noise can be extrapolated to violent behavior.

Clearly what kids do and see and experience impacts behavior. Kids listen to loud be-popping music they get loud and rowdy. I mean we've been telling/reading kids stories or singing them lullabies before bed forever because these are activities that tend to calm and mellow kids.

But rowdiness isn't violence. I think one could just as easily make the case that kids who are exposed to slow dull witless entertainment, exhibit slow dull witless behavior.

Edit - Ooops the story.



Edited, Jul 7th 2011 3:08pm by Elinda
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#48 Jul 07 2011 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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Increased aggression directly after the activity isn't indicative of anything. After playing any physical sports, children (and adults) have their aggression increased as well.
#49 Jul 07 2011 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
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And do any of these things indicate a need for legislature? Methinks not without a ton of completely un-scientific conjecture.
#50 Jul 09 2011 at 5:34 PM Rating: Default
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Allegory wrote:
Increased aggression directly after the activity isn't indicative of anything. After playing any physical sports, children (and adults) have their aggression increased as well.


Which can also predict violence. I'm scarcely on the side of prohibiting reasonably violent video games to teens, but it seems like wishful thinking to me that increased aggression isn't indicative of a propensity for violence. A golfer is a lot more likely to throw his clubs when he's fucking up the green than a chess player is to flip the board when he's losing due simply to the different brain states the games evoke.

Though I would argue that frustrating game mechanics can be a better indicator of aggression and violence than the modeling of violence :P
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Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#51 Jul 09 2011 at 5:49 PM Rating: Decent
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The important part of Allegory's post was that this is not in any way indicative of a long-term trend, much like you wouldn't say that golf players are necessarily more violent than chess players.
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