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#52 Sep 12 2014 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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#53 Sep 12 2014 at 8:51 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, we abolished censorship 331 years ago. Someone phone Google and let them know what year it is.
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#54 Sep 13 2014 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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It's interesting. The new filter is actually making me more likely to swear. I made a post a few minute ago where I said "f-ing" rather than "********" just because the former won't get eaten by the filter.

Edited, Sep 14th 2014 12:46am by Karlina
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#55 Sep 16 2014 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Out of curiosity, how long do we plan on keeping this new filter in place?
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#56 Sep 16 2014 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Mazra wrote:
Out of curiosity, how long do we plan on keeping this new filter in place?


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#57 Sep 17 2014 at 9:00 AM Rating: Good
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That's a mighty long time.
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#58 Sep 20 2014 at 2:58 PM Rating: Good
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No word yet on the status of the filter. Really curious if it's going to be improved or just left as is?

It's very disruptive to normal posts. At the very least I'd think they'd fix the punctuation/markup issue and make the filtered result at least match the number of characters in the word, even if they don't let us say Hell Hell and Bloody Bloody anymore.

Edited, Sep 20th 2014 4:59pm by TirithRR
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#59 Sep 21 2014 at 2:14 AM Rating: Good
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The new filter actually makes it look like there's MORE swearing. When something is filtered you tend to assume it was a word strong enough to warrant it. That's not the case any more. Now if I say "what the ****" people are likely to read it as "what the fuck" even though I really only said "what the hell". Same with crap and shit, etc. People are going to read relatively inoffensive words as much stronger words BECAUSE of the filter.
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#60 Sep 21 2014 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Karlina wrote:
The new filter actually makes it look like there's MORE swearing. When something is filtered you tend to assume it was a word strong enough to warrant it. That's not the case any more. Now if I say "what the ****" people are likely to read it as "what the fuck" even though I really only said "what the hell". Same with crap and shit, etc. People are going to read relatively inoffensive words as much stronger words BECAUSE of the filter.


Well, that doesn't matter, because it's all about the automated Google search bots out there. They aren't smart enough to determine context.

The real issue, beyond the G-Rated nature of the filter, is how broken the filter is.
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#61 Sep 29 2014 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
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I've searched and found a handful of lists on Google searches. But none appear to have the same words we've seen filtered here. Could we see the actual list that the programmers have decided to use? Obviously you can't post it in the forums but there are many other ways to post a simple list for viewing.

The few I had found did not include basic words like "a small part on or attached to a piece of equipment." Or a few of the other questionable terms that have been censored. And they seemed to include more terms that are not censored here. Yet, I guess.
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#62 Sep 29 2014 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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We also haven't had any comment on the actual structure of the filter. Mainly, how everything is replaced with four stars, and how the filter just stops working with repetition.

I mean, the filter has obviously been really poorly implemented. No one expects it to go away - that literally isn't our argument - but can we have ANY comment on whether or not it is being refined? And is there any way to, y'know, appeal specific words?

Because, like, gay.
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#63 Sep 29 2014 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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Sticking this here for future references.

Aethien wrote:
1: Can we get a full list of the words that are filtered? I asked this question almost 2 months(!) ago and I don't know why it still hasn't been answered.
2: Why is the filter so extremely strict? So much more strict than any other I've ever encountered? And please don't answer it with a fancy worded "just suck it up" because that's getting old. Even if you don't know at least let us know that and whether or not anyone is trying to find an explanation for it. Google told us to just does not make sense to me and pretty much everyone else when everybody uses adsense and only ZAM has such a strict filter.
Kaolian wrote:
1. No, because they are filtered. The list could probably be e-mailed somewhere, but posted is not happening. If you search for the list you can probably find it online though really easily as has been mentioned several times.

2. Because google already sent us a "we're pulling all of your adsense rights" note once before and we successfully appealed it. The rate of successful appeal seems to be about 1 in every 100 cases. If they decide to pull that ad funding again, we would in all probability lose an appeal. If that funding goes away, the forums go away. Period. So we are not going to lose that funding. Period. If that does not make sense to you, then it just is never going to make sense.


I understand that you don't want to lose funding, but this mysterious list that no one can link to seems like a crock of **** . I looked on the official Adsense page, and there is no mention of an official list of flagged words.

Adsense wrote:
To filter text, the system needs to rely on a list of keywords made up of individual words as well as word combinations. Creating this list can be done in a number of ways, depending on the type of content, it’s volume on the site and the publisher's available resources:

Compile your own list of words and phrases that you wish to filter. You can use your own intuition or get some help:
  • Ask your employees to contribute
  • Reach out to your users for help
  • Use Google Adwords: Keywords tool
  • For additional inspiration take a look at websites that host undesirable content (adult and/or filesharing sites for example), and find out which keywords show up frequently on these.

https://support.google.com/adsense/answer/3011871

You're supposed to use your intuition and go look up bad words on a pornography website or something stupid like that. There's not a single mention of a list of words that Adsense dislikes. Why not? Why would a list like that be kept secret? Wouldn't it improve the process of helping Adsense clients filter their content if they made the list public? It makes no sense that Adsense would keep it secret if the list did indeed exist.

Oh, and I like the part where they recommend you reach out to your users for help. Good job doing exactly the opposite of that.

The fact that words like 'fitting' are on the mystery list just adds to my suspicion. I've searched every English dictionary I have access to, including the slang/urban dictionaries out there, and I cannot find anything to support the idea that 'fitting' should have some secondary definition that would conflict with the Adsense policies.

Where, exactly, did you get this list from? Did you find it on some obscure forum somewhere? Great, then we're being censored based on a list of words that some person unrelated to Adsense came up with. I can write a list of random words, too.

Origin of the source matters. It matters so much that we teach our kids in school not to trust sources that cannot be validated. You think "because!" will satisfy us? Dislike our disliking of your vague replies all you want, but this all smells like a load of **** . Vague replies and withholding information isn't going to make the smell go away.

Put the **** cards on the table. This **** is ridiculous.

P.S. My post comes off as very hostile, because the **** filter is terrible!
P.P.S. This post is not necessarily aimed at Kaolian or any other admin. It's aimed at ZAM - more precisely, the ZAM customer service manager. I'm not liking the complete lack of proper communication between ZAM and its customers on this matter. Remember the AdBlock scandal a while back? Let's try to not repeat that ****, shall we?

Edited, Sep 29th 2014 9:03pm by Mazra
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#64 Sep 29 2014 at 8:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mazra wrote:
Sticking this here for future references.
I understand that you don't want to lose funding, but this mysterious list that no one can link to seems like a crock of **** . I looked on the official Adsense page, and there is no mention of an official list of flagged words.


I have the list. I can send it to you via e-mail. I WILL NOT LINK IT HERE EVER BECAUSE THE SOURCE IS SOMEWHAT LESS THAN APPROPRIATE AND IT WOULD CACHE AS A LINK TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT, THUS POSSIBLY TRIGGERING AN ADSENSE "EVENT". What part of that is not understood? It is not an official adsense provided list. It is however the multilingual list of words that will trigger an adsense block for the most common languages that access and post on this site. The others blocked include German and Russian spam terms, one of which "fitxxx" seems to be related to. Is it a stupid list? yes. Do we hate it? yes. Is it going away? no.

Mazra wrote:


You're supposed to use your intuition and go look up bad words on a pornography website or something stupid like that. There's not a single mention of a list of words that Adsense dislikes. Why not? Why would a list like that be kept secret? Wouldn't it improve the process of helping Adsense clients filter their content if they made the list public? It makes no sense that Adsense would keep it secret if the list did indeed exist.

My only guess as to why they don't publish it officially is that they don't want to be seen as providing a list of inappropriate words tied to their site. The list we have is basically from the internals of the adsense first level block engine itself, and is about 6 months out of date at the moment.


Mazra wrote:
The fact that words like 'fitting' are on the mystery list just adds to my suspicion. I've searched every English dictionary I have access to, including the slang/urban dictionaries out there, and I cannot find anything to support the idea that 'fitting' should have some secondary definition that would conflict with the Adsense policies.

Where, exactly, did you get this list from? Did you find it on some obscure forum somewhere? Great, then we're being censored based on a list of words that some person unrelated to Adsense came up with. I can write a list of random words, too.

Origin of the source matters. It matters so much that we teach our kids in school not to trust sources that cannot be validated. You think "because!" will satisfy us? Dislike our disliking of your vague replies all you want, but this all smells like a load of **** . Vague replies and withholding information isn't going to make the smell go away.

They are not all Englsh words. The source was somewhat obscure, and is a group of individuals "some might call them criminals or spammers" actively trying to find ways to evade the adsense block engine. They have put a great deal of effort into figuring out what will trigger the blocks and it seems to be a shame not to utilize that effort to protect the site so we don't HAVE TO SHUT THE FORUM DOWN IF WE LOSE THE AD FUNDING. So no, I will not be linking to the source of that particular list, we are 100% certain it is at least moderately accurate relating to what terms will trigger the block engine in at least some unknown quantity level

Mazra wrote:

Put the **** cards on the table. This **** is ridiculous.

I'm getting tired of repeating myself. This filter is in reaction to the adsense block that we already triggered once. We were allowed to keep our adsense account on appeal. The forums were almost shuttered that day as a reactionary measure. You are not getting how serious the incident was in the overall scheme of things. The forums are a very small, and ever shrinking portion of the overall site traffic (and we fully realize some of that shrinkage is due to the hated filter) The issue with content in the forum SHUT DOWN THE ADSENSE ACCOUNT FOR THE ENTIRE ZAM SITE NETWORK. Including things like wowhead and rifthead and things that drive so much more traffic than the forums ever did. That's a very very large amount of money, and if the forums cause the company as a whole to lose all that money, they would be shut down. We know this can realistically happen, because IT ALREADY DID ONCE. Our only recourse is to ensure as best we can that the forums DO NOT trigger the adsense block engine again. We would very likely not win a second appeal.

The *** replacement of words is a speed issue rather than an attempt to prevent which general word was replaced from being shown If it has to check against the bad word list each time and then also check against the replacement list each time, with as many words are on that list now, it would make every post take much longer. It's not ideal, but it's the tradeoff between speed and protection that we have at the moment. Some of the wildcard blocks probably need more targeting and we will work on that. The list of blocked words does not necessarily translate directly to terms or concepts that ZAM or ZAM staff find objectionable, they are on the list of things google adsense does block however.

Mazra wrote:

P.S. My post comes off as very hostile, because the **** filter is terrible!
P.P.S. This post is not necessarily aimed at Kaolian or any other admin. It's aimed at ZAM - more precisely, the ZAM customer service manager. I'm not liking the complete lack of proper communication between ZAM and its customers on this matter. Remember the AdBlock scandal a while back? Let's try to not repeat that **** shall we?

It was very hostile, and unnecessarily so. If you weren't trying to annoy me, you kind of did anyways. This isn't something we can just make go away. It's not just a poorly thought out policy decision. This is a reaction to prevent a reoccurrence of a BAD THING that already happened once.

We almost didn't HAVE a forum. and that's unacceptable.
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#65 Sep 29 2014 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I have the list. I can send it to you via e-mail. I WILL NOT LINK IT HERE EVER BECAUSE THE SOURCE IS SOMEWHAT LESS THAN APPROPRIATE AND IT WOULD CACHE AS A LINK TO INAPPROPRIATE CONTENT, THUS POSSIBLY TRIGGERING AN ADSENSE "EVENT". What part of that is not understood? It is not an official adsense provided list. It is however the multilingual list of words that will trigger an adsense block for the most common languages that access and post on this site. The others blocked include German and Russian spam terms, one of which "fitxxx" seems to be related to. Is it a stupid list? yes. Do we hate it? yes. Is it going away? no.
Out of curiosity, if you were to email it to someone, could they then copy-paste the list to something like an old WoW guild forum and link that so others could see the list and you wouldn't have to worry about people constantly bugging you for it? Or would the word list alone make the link radioactive?
#66 Sep 30 2014 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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Once someone has it they can do whatever they want with it so long as it doesn't involve posting it linking it or in any way displaying it here.
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#67 Sep 30 2014 at 8:31 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It was very hostile, and unnecessarily so. If you weren't trying to annoy me, you kind of did anyways. This isn't something we can just make go away. It's not just a poorly thought out policy decision. This is a reaction to prevent a reoccurrence of a BAD THING that already happened once.


To be completely blunt, it wasn't unnecessarily hostile.

Until your last response, our actual questions about the filter have been almost completely ignored. We get that there has to be a filter, we get why there has to be a filter, we get that words we don't want filtered are on the list.

The problem is with the communication from Zam's end. To be blunt, it's been horrible.

And to get specific to Maz's post, Kao, you directly reported false info to us, which is why Maz's post about looking all over for adsense lists even exists. Y'know, the post you called hostile.

Kao, page 1 wrote:
he phrases added to the filter were taken directly from the list google adsense published of objectionable phrases they use to determine suitability of a site to maintain adsense advertising eligibility.


We've been confused because you told us there was a google-published list. And there isn't. I have no issue with the actual source of the list. I do have issue with the fact that there's no mechanism to appeal words, but the source, no. What I do have an issue with is getting told false info and then being treated like we're being whiny children when we don't understand what's happening.

No, instead we get told to suck it up for calling Zam out on its BS and that our questions continue to be ignored. I get it, you're in a tough situation, that sucks. But no one blames you for the filter existing. We ARE annoyed at the response, or lack thereof, we've had about it.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you initially reported what you thought was the case, and didn't directly misconstrue the situation. And I'm sorry you're irritated, but Zam could have just posted the information in your last post at the start, and abated so much of this irritation.
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#68 Sep 30 2014 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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Thank you for the additional info on the origin of the list, Kao. A lot of things make more sense now, which has alleviated much of my frustration. I'm sorry my post annoyed you - it was not my intention to lay the blame on you guys (admins).

Everything else has already been said by Digg. The reaction from you (admins), whenever we poke the subject, reminds me of the AdBlock case, which is why I brought it up. It feels like someone higher up red-taped the entire thing and told you guys to not talk about it, because maybe it would go away on its own.

A question regarding the filter: Are we allowed to manually filter swear words? Like, am I allowed to write 'd*mn' or 'dmn' instead of having asterisks completely mess up the tone of the post? Technically, d*mn/dmn is not a swear word (it's not a word at all), but would it still trigger?

Not trying to stir the pot, but the filter, in its current form, creates a lot of problems. I know that we're not allowed to manually filter the f-word and such, because PG-13 is PG-13 or something, but what about words that are only blocked to prevent the Adsense robot from picking them up? I'm assuming a word with a random asterisk in it does not get flagged, but I don't know.
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#69 Sep 30 2014 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
I find myself self-censoring with substitute words, as if I was trying to swear in front of a toddler.

Quote:
You're a mean poopy head and I hope someone kicks you in the bum!


It's a fun exercise in creativity. And the filter doesn't mind high-falutin words like "excrement", nor euphemisms like "manhood" and such.
#70 Sep 30 2014 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Oh god, no, not "manhood."
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#71 Sep 30 2014 at 1:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Not yet, it doesn't mind.

Next stage will be us having a list of Google-approved words that we're allowed to use.
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#72 Sep 30 2014 at 4:07 PM Rating: Good
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Kao wrote:
The others blocked include German and Russian spam terms, one of which "fitxxx" seems to be related to.

So, if you were better at blocking spammers, which ZAM seems not to be, we possibly wouldn't be seeing this massive overreaction?
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#73 Sep 30 2014 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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idiggory the Fussy wrote:

To be completely blunt, it wasn't unnecessarily hostile.

Until your last response, our actual questions about the filter have been almost completely ignored. We get that there has to be a filter, we get why there has to be a filter, we get that words we don't want filtered are on the list.

The problem is with the communication from Zam's end. To be blunt, it's been horrible.


The questions have been answered multiple times, by multiple people in multiple threads. We've also answered numerous PM's about it.

idiggory the Fussy wrote:

And to get specific to Maz's post, Kao, you directly reported false info to us, which is why Maz's post about looking all over for adsense lists even exists. Y'know, the post you called hostile.

They did at one point have a published list. it used to be here: https://support.google.com/adwords/topic/16862?page=guidelines.cs&subtopic=9279 Not sure when it went away. They pulled it for unknown reasons.

Kao, page 1 wrote:
he phrases added to the filter were taken directly from the list google adsense published of objectionable phrases they use to determine suitability of a site to maintain adsense advertising eligibility.


We've been confused because you told us there was a google-published list. And there isn't. I have no issue with the actual source of the list. I do have issue with the fact that there's no mechanism to appeal words, but the source, no. What I do have an issue with is getting told false info and then being treated like we're being whiny children when we don't understand what's happening.

No, instead we get told to suck it up for calling Zam out on its BS and that our questions continue to be ignored. I get it, you're in a tough situation, that sucks. But no one blames you for the filter existing. We ARE annoyed at the response, or lack thereof, we've had about it.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming you initially reported what you thought was the case, and didn't directly misconstrue the situation. And I'm sorry you're irritated, but Zam could have just posted the information in your last post at the start, and abated so much of this irritation.[/quote]
It for the most part has been posted in various sections of the forum, PM'ed to people who asked, e-mailed. etc. Some of you have decided to make this particular unpleasant and annoying change a topic of a crusade despite being told that we're really kind of stuck with it for the reasons outlined multiple times, and it is getting old.

Mazra wrote:
Thank you for the additional info on the origin of the list, Kao. A lot of things make more sense now, which has alleviated much of my frustration. I'm sorry my post annoyed you - it was not my intention to lay the blame on you guys (admins).

Ok, maybe I read too much into it, I will take it as you intended and not as I read it. You can see why this whole thing makes me somewhat grumpy though.

Mazra wrote:

Everything else has already been said by Digg. The reaction from you (admins), whenever we poke the subject, reminds me of the AdBlock case, which is why I brought it up. It feels like someone higher up red-taped the entire thing and told you guys to not talk about it, because maybe it would go away on its own.

The adblock piece came from Draknorr, who is no longer an employee of the site. It was a horrible mistake and we told them it was stupid from the beginning. This is different. We don't want to keep talking about it because it's an annoying issue that has no good side to it. every time it gets dredged back up again people get annoyed, we get annoyed, and nothing good will come of it.

Mazra wrote:

A question regarding the filter: Are we allowed to manually filter swear words? Like, am I allowed to write 'd*mn' or 'dmn' instead of having asterisks completely mess up the tone of the post? Technically, d*mn/dmn is not a swear word (it's not a word at all), but would it still trigger?

Not trying to stir the pot, but the filter, in its current form, creates a lot of problems. I know that we're not allowed to manually filter the f-word and such, because PG-13 is PG-13 or something, but what about words that are only blocked to prevent the Adsense robot from picking them up? I'm assuming a word with a random asterisk in it does not get flagged, but I don't know.


I personally don't care if you break the filter by manually censoring words, within reason. some of them would have been filtered anyways. This entire new filter is a technical effort to prevent a second google adsense ban, not something in place to hide users from things we particularly object to on a personal level.

Kastigir wrote:
Kao wrote:
The others blocked include German and Russian spam terms, one of which "fitxxx" seems to be related to.

So, if you were better at blocking spammers, which ZAM seems not to be, we possibly wouldn't be seeing this massive overreaction?

Ok, pay attention. I'm only going to go over this bit one more time. The latest batch of spammers are from India, which has absolutely stupid computer laws. They spam in various languages. They spam at hours of the night when we admins are usually asleep. they have several entire ISP ranges worth of addresses to play with. We've seen them from pretty much the entire 182.xxx.xxx.xxx range I know where their spam servers are located, Which group of idiots is likely doing it, and even what spamming platform they are using, and no one in India seems to be willing to do a damned thing about it. For every one spam you are seeing, and far more of them are getting through than I like, there are another thousand we are intercepting. Average banned topic counts for the week are ranging in the 2,000 - 3,000 numbers, and that doesn't even begin to count the ones the anti posting filter successfully blocks. We are being hit with a constant, huge wave of spam absolutely least suited for easy stoppage, with limited developer resources. With all that in mind, we are actually doing better finally, and starting to get on top of that wave and smash it into the ground.
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#74 Sep 30 2014 at 6:14 PM Rating: Good
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Literally all we ever wanted was clarification. I've read every admin response on the filter I've seen, but your previous post is the first time I saw any of the most important questions were ever answered. And the only question I ever saw answered was WHY the filter was implemented. Got it, it's a good reason. I agree. But nothing about the list of words and why it was so encompassing, where it came from, or why ordinary words were censored, and nothing about the technical aspects.

And consider this is the site and forum feedback forum, and this is the thread on the swear filter, I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect those responses here. It's cool you PMd people and all, or answered in other threads, but that's not exactly public information. I can't, and shouldn't have to, track down every single admin response on the site to try and piece together a story that could be fully responded to in one post in the one thread in the one appropriate forum.

I get you don't like talking about it. But just giving us that info outright would have... kept us from talking about it nonstop, trying to get that info.
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#75 Oct 01 2014 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Ok, maybe I read too much into it, I will take it as you intended and not as I read it. You can see why this whole thing makes me somewhat grumpy though.


My entire day consists of answering questions that I've already answered multiple times before (by me). I understand your frustration all too well, but I've also come to understand the importance of giving your "clients" a precise, yet comprehensive, answer - to keep them from coming back with more questions. Smiley: smile

Having been given the precise and comprehensive answer I sought after, my frustration now only lies with the necessity of the filter, which is a frustration I appear to share with you guys, so we're on the same page again. Smiley: thumbsup

Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
I personally don't care if you break the filter by manually censoring words, within reason. some of them would have been filtered anyways. This entire new filter is a technical effort to prevent a second google adsense ban, not something in place to hide users from things we particularly object to on a personal level.


That's what I thought, but I wanted to be sure before going nuts with the textese.

Christ, this whole Adsense debacle has put a dent in my shiny white armor. I find it difficult to defend a company that encourages companies to violate The Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

UDHR wrote:
... human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear ...


Adsense: "But if you or your users say something we don't like, we're gonna ruin your livelihood, kthxbai!"

Edited, Oct 1st 2014 9:16pm by Mazra
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Please "talk up" if your comprehension white-shifts. I will use simple-happy language-words to help you understand.
#76 Oct 01 2014 at 10:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
The only reasonable solution here is a Kickstarter for me to purchase the site.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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