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lvl 90 scythes and GSFollow

#1 Dec 07 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Heya everyone!

Thought we could post all magian lvl 90 upgrades and if they're good enough ;)
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#2 Dec 07 2010 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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The OaT greatsword and scythe will 2-4x attack. They make the ultimate skill up and TP spam weapons. Sadly I am working on my Khandra atm.
#3 Dec 07 2010 at 10:07 PM Rating: Default
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Smells like an /r/ thread in here.

Nothing really changed, Magian weapons are still on top, and the other few added are between passable and ****

Grabbed a few Dire Scythes out of curiosity, since I'm gonna have a ton of DN from going after seals anyway. One 99DMG and one 105DMG, both Nightmare Scythe +25%, so lulzy as hell. I don't expect the WS damage+ to be any but the ones on the WS path magian anyway.
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#4 Dec 08 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Decent
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I was going to make a new thread for this but this would seems proper enough to ask my question.

I have a ultimatum and began the trial to obtain the 50 two leaf chloris buds right after it came out not knowing what it entailed and not having known SE was implementing relic 3.0. Is it possible to abandon that trial and start another one with the ultimatum? I see one that says you need 20 kindred crests and it gives you a pretty good looking scythe that grants the new weapon skill and has pretty good damage. I believe it's called the Penitence and says it only needs 20 kindred crests? How does this compare to other options? Just wondering what the best course of action for me to take would be right now.

Thanks for any help.
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#5 Dec 08 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, you can cancel your trials, but once you complete a trial, you can't go back.

The other Ultimatum path is good as it gives you the empyrian weaponskill eventually. You just have to participate in the hellhole called Walk of Echoes.
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#6 Dec 08 2010 at 2:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, you can cancel your trial and go with the alternate path, which is what I did with my multihit path scythe when Verthandi was being a tightwad **** 0/4.

You need coins from WoE first, then the Kindred's Crests, then an assload (50 iirc) of the new High Kindred Crest.

Coin drop rates in WoE have been jacked up quite a bit, to about one coin every other mob now versus every ten or so.

Edited, Dec 8th 2010 12:04am by Raelix
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#7 Dec 08 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Decent
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Ahh I see, now to see if anyone actually does WOE on my server.

Does anyone know how hard those new high kindred crests are to get yet?
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#8 Dec 08 2010 at 5:09 AM Rating: Decent
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They drop like candy from lv90+ mobs. I have a half-dozen or so already.
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#9 Dec 08 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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They seem to occupy the same seal slot as Kindred Crests and possibly Geodes, the HCCs maybe even requiring mobs level 90+. While not hard to get, I wouldn't say they rain, either. I only wound up with 2 after taking 2 jobs to 90 over the past couple nights.
#10 Dec 08 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Eh, I finished Maschu +2 in about a day. Do Dominion, EXP, and small man seal farming with your LS and/or trusted friends and you'll get 50+ in a day or two. Just don't be a jack off and lot them if you aren't on that trial. This Magian path is made 1000x harder because people lot WoE coins, lot H. Kindred Crests, etc. because they'll finish it "someday".
#11 Dec 08 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Default
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Just a note HQ Kindered Crest are easy to get. Xland S. Imps and demons drop them as well as NQ ones. And most are only EP-DC at 90.
#12 Dec 08 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Scythe still sh*ts all over Great Sword. For nostalgias sake I keep both leveled, and I even made the WS Dmg +10% GS. My STR Scythe crushes it. My highest Spinning Slash has been about 1600. Highest Guillotine has been just under 3k. I'd like to see Great Sword have more use than "for the lulz" but I doubt it.
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#13 Dec 09 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Don't forget this level 90 scythe :)

Twilight Scythe (Rare Exclusive)
Scythe
DMG:128 Delay:513 STR+8
Additional effect: "Death"
Lv90 DRK
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#14 Dec 09 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Dreakon wrote:
Scythe still sh*ts all over Great Sword. For nostalgias sake I keep both leveled, and I even made the WS Dmg +10% GS. My STR Scythe crushes it. My highest Spinning Slash has been about 1600. Highest Guillotine has been just under 3k. I'd like to see Great Sword have more use than "for the lulz" but I doubt it.
Those numbers are absolutely meaningless.
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#15 Dec 09 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I have the gs with +10 ws damage and wondering what route would be better for it. The 100tp or the more base damage and 10 ws damage?
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#16Dreakon, Posted: Dec 09 2010 at 11:42 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Check it out yourself. While parsing it might be a bit more formal. The difference is blatantly obvious to all but the stupidest people. The only people still arguing for Great Sword are the people that do it for the looks. And if that's your "play style" cool. But I'm talking damage output. And in that regard Scythe still wins, by a long shot.
#17 Dec 09 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
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Dreakon wrote:
Xypin wrote:
Those numbers are absolutely meaningless.
Check it out yourself. While parsing it might be a bit more formal. The difference is blatantly obvious to all but the stupidest people. The only people still arguing for Great Sword are the people that do it for the looks. And if that's your "play style" cool. But I'm talking damage output. And in that regard Scythe still wins, by a long shot.
Soul Eater favors scythe because of guillotine, so it's only natural that your highest weaponskill damage will come from scythe.

Soul Eater is not always a viable option and guillotine is going to be a joke on stronger mobs.


The statistic of "my highest damage weaponskill" is one of the worst comparisons anyone can possibly make. Sounds like a bad case of BNS to me.
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#18 Dec 09 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Dreakon wrote:
Scythe still sh*ts all over Great Sword. For nostalgias sake I keep both leveled, and I even made the WS Dmg +10% GS. My STR Scythe crushes it. My highest Spinning Slash has been about 1600. Highest Guillotine has been just under 3k. I'd like to see Great Sword have more use than "for the lulz" but I doubt it.


Your conclusion is irrelevant barring testing of Torcleaver and Quietus.
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#19 Dec 09 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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firefeng wrote:
Dreakon wrote:
Scythe still sh*ts all over Great Sword. For nostalgias sake I keep both leveled, and I even made the WS Dmg +10% GS. My STR Scythe crushes it. My highest Spinning Slash has been about 1600. Highest Guillotine has been just under 3k. I'd like to see Great Sword have more use than "for the lulz" but I doubt it.


Your conclusion is irrelevant barring testing of Torcleaver and Quietus.

Actually his conclusion is only reinforced by the addition of Tocleaver and Quietus, despite his egregious errors in arriving at it, because Quietus gives Scythe the oomph Spinning Slash has on stronger mobs, while Tocleaver is about equal at best unless you wanna play it like Spiral **** 2.0. Guillotine and Spinning Slash are way behind both anyway, and even Souleater barely brings Guillo up to par

Short version: Quietus is Spinning Slash 2.0 with SE's classic 'f*ck you DRK' of having a MND secondary, while Torcleaver is VIT modded. Take your pick, neither comes close to 4k+ Crit WS territory anyway.

Torcleaver is way better on lolPLD, but then Chant du Cygne says "Sup."

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:30pm by Raelix
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#20 Dec 09 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Reply != Edit

Edited, Dec 9th 2010 2:30pm by Raelix
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#21 Dec 09 2010 at 7:58 PM Rating: Decent
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easy 5 hit on scythe, why aren't you fulltiming souleater in abyssea, etc.
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#22 Dec 10 2010 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm working on capping my Great Sword Skill atm. I will parse the next abyssea party and post results.
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#23 Dec 10 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Dreakon wrote:
I'm working on capping my Great Sword Skill atm. I will parse the next abyssea party and post results.
No need, pretty sure we already know the results: scythe will win by a clear margin. Even I know that great sword just can't compare with scythe in most situations.
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#24 Dec 10 2010 at 11:29 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Actually his conclusion is only reinforced by the addition of Tocleaver and Quietus, despite his egregious errors in arriving at it, because Quietus gives Scythe the oomph Spinning Slash has on stronger mobs, while Tocleaver is about equal at best unless you wanna play it like Spiral **** 2.0


Except that one WS ignores defense, and one increases damage, and it's really **** easy to pump 900+ ATT in Abyssea without outside buffs, and 800+ outside Abyssea, thus minimizing the effect of ignoring defense. And also, Raelix talking out of his **** again and coming to biased conclusions without the benefit of small, trifling things like facts to back them up. (And no one is surprised by this at all.)

Again, further testing of both WS is required before you're allowed to **** your retarded opinions all over the DRK forums.
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#25Dreakon, Posted: Dec 10 2010 at 11:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Firefeng, you sound hilariously butthurt. We've all seen screenshots of both weapon skills. And even if Torcleaver was significantly better (Which it isn't, it's only marginally better) than Quietus, the Scythe DOT would still put it ahead over all. If you want to full time a Great Sword and pretend to be Cloud, by all means, but you look like the idiot here, not Raelix.
#26 Dec 10 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Good
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I've had Quietus for a couple months, and an LS mate has Torcleaver. I don't have a parser, for whatever reason they don't work on this computer.

I'm Hume, she's Mithra. Aside from that trivial difference we have about the same WS gear, +69 STR. It's the same gear (aside from changing the sea gorget obviously) I'd use for Torcleaver. Same buffs in Dynamis, Abyssea, HNM events, etc.

So far, I haven't seen Torcleaver perform anywhere near Quietus. The difference is fairly obvious, I'm talking by a good 300+ damage difference almost every WS.

It's possible using a sh*t ton of VIT gear will make the WS do crazy numbers but it's kind of hard to pull a full VIT set out of thin air. Especially on DRK.

The sole indication that Torcleaver is an above average WS comes from 1 Einherjar parse on BG, where it averaged 2k damage and spiked to 2.5k. How in the **** they did that I have no idea, considering they used more or less the exact same WS gear as us, STR based.

So make of this what you will. I'm 16/30 on Decay but after I finished Penitence +1 and Maschu +2 I'm taking a break from WoE. When I finsh the GS I'll compare the two.

Edited, Dec 10th 2010 6:35pm by Hexagram
#27 Dec 10 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Hexagram wrote:
The sole indication that Torcleaver is an above average WS comes from 1 Einherjar parse on BG, where it averaged 2k damage and spiked to 2.5k. How in the **** they did that I have no idea, considering they used more or less the exact same WS gear as us, STR based.

Probably 300tp or something. Like I said: Spiral **** 2.0; fancy e-peen numbers if you care to waste two more WS for it.

ITT: Feng shows how out-of-touch he is with the recent updates. Way to let personal bias get in the way of otherwise good information, douchenozzle.
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#28 Dec 11 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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According to that parse, unless he was getting TP at some unheard of rate, there's no way those Torcleavers would have been at 300tp.

The parse suggests that Torcleaver is better than Fudo (averaged more damae) and fTP suggests that isn't a crazy idea.

I dunno, I've only heard two accounts personally. One is that parse clearly showing the result above as well as some data on rabbits outside Sandy (VIT > STR for Torcleaver, apparently- even though the guy in the parse was full on STR gear). The other is second hand saying that a friend who has the non-empyrean version does Torcleavers that about match his non-empyrean Quietus.

I'm not sure which to believe, but it's at least something to be hopeful for still.
#29 Dec 13 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Parsed against a drk with Quietus last weekend. I definitely was impressed by the damage "initially". I saw him popping 1500-2500 WS left and right while I was doing around 1k guillotine. Note that I use a lvl 85 OAT scythe so naturally my WS number would be lower, so it is expected. Not to mention, I was in a party of no buff, so my attack was definitely not capped, and I was using RR and DD atma to get that 75% critical hit rate, which suits better with OAT scythe anyway.

So after a while, it seems like he was bored with Quietus and popped guillotine a few times (few times is like 25 times) and surprisingly his guillotine was around 1500-2500 as well. So in the end, I checked the parse result, I was averaging exactly 1000 guillotine a pop, and he was average 1900 Quietus AND 1900 Guillotine. The overall parse result was irrelevant since I don't know what atma he was using, and it sure wasn't RR and DD cuz his critical hit rate was 15% only while mine was 75%, and he wasn't using VV atma either cuz I didn't see his tp ticking while idle. And we also were in different party so he was getting haste and I wasn't.

I outparsed him anyway but like I said it is irrelevant, what's interesting is his WS damage. It is very obvious that Quietus is a very very mediocre WS, which is probably good for higher end mobs where you can't cap attack. But in a high buff situation, guillotine will seemingly cap higher or do around the same damage. So, take it whichever way you like. Didn't feel like checking him, so I don't know if he has the lvl 90 scythe. I was lvl 86 to start the parse and he was lvl 90 I believe, I ended up being 89 (not a particularly good party as no buff for melee obviously), and a drk should not parse 25% overall damage in an abyssea party which I did...

I am definitely interested in seeing more Torcleaver numbers tho I have no doubt it destroys Spinning slash.
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#30 Dec 13 2010 at 6:26 PM Rating: Decent
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pochenlai wrote:
Parsed against a drk with Quietus last weekend. I definitely was impressed by the damage "initially". I saw him popping 1500-2500 WS left and right while I was doing around 1k guillotine. Note that I use a lvl 85 OAT scythe so naturally my WS number would be lower, so it is expected. Not to mention, I was in a party of no buff, so my attack was definitely not capped, and I was using RR and DD atma to get that 75% critical hit rate, which suits better with OAT scythe anyway.

So after a while, it seems like he was bored with Quietus and popped guillotine a few times (few times is like 25 times) and surprisingly his guillotine was around 1500-2500 as well. So in the end, I checked the parse result, I was averaging exactly 1000 guillotine a pop, and he was average 1900 Quietus AND 1900 Guillotine. The overall parse result was irrelevant since I don't know what atma he was using, and it sure wasn't RR and DD cuz his critical hit rate was 15% only while mine was 75%, and he wasn't using VV atma either cuz I didn't see his tp ticking while idle. And we also were in different party so he was getting haste and I wasn't.

I outparsed him anyway but like I said it is irrelevant, what's interesting is his WS damage. It is very obvious that Quietus is a very very mediocre WS, which is probably good for higher end mobs where you can't cap attack. But in a high buff situation, guillotine will seemingly cap higher or do around the same damage. So, take it whichever way you like. Didn't feel like checking him, so I don't know if he has the lvl 90 scythe. I was lvl 86 to start the parse and he was lvl 90 I believe, I ended up being 89 (not a particularly good party as no buff for melee obviously), and a drk should not parse 25% overall damage in an abyssea party which I did...

I am definitely interested in seeing more Torcleaver numbers tho I have no doubt it destroys Spinning slash.


Uh....no. With the same buffs on virtually anything, from EXP mobs to HNM level mobs, Quietus destroys Guillotine. It's not even close. No offense but I've had the WS for 2 months, and you have 1 parse with a lot of info missing.
#31 Dec 14 2010 at 12:06 AM Rating: Good
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Saw a +17 DMG (116) Zanshin+2 Dire Scythe, and another with +14 DMG. Never seen anything but +%DMG to Nightmare Scythe on the WS side, but he did get a +40% NS damage one, which still sucks. He said those two were out of 34 scythes purchased. I've gotten three +11 DMG (110 total) out of maybe 18 bought.

Edited, Dec 13th 2010 10:13pm by Raelix
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#32 Dec 14 2010 at 1:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I am all for figuring out the relation between guillotine and quietus, so if you have some parse result it would be great since you have had the weapon for 2 months. From every where I heard, it is a mediocre WS, I understand you want to hype it up since you have it and worked hard for it obviously, but if you look at it from the math side, it definitely isn't something that is going to "destroy" guillotine. It might do slightly higher damage thanks to higher WSC, but guillotine has a combined 3.875 ftp while I believe quietus is at 3.0 or 3.5. I want to believe that it is good too hence the initial impression, but when the guy average almost the same with quietus and guillotine under exactly the same buff (note that I am not comparing him to myself, I am comparing his guillotine to his quietus), it is hard not to take note. Not to mention, I have already stated that we were in an abyssea party of no buff, so if anything, it definitely favored quietus a bit in case the attack is not capped. Like I said, I have no idea what atma he was using, but none would significantly boost one ws or the other, so I am not sure what the a lot of missing info is coming from. If anything, I thought it was pretty obvious.
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#33 Dec 14 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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you check buffs usage? if he's SE with guillotine that's going to push its average significantly higher than it would with quietus being as its a 4 hit WS.
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#34 Dec 14 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
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I shall check that when I get home from work.
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#35 Dec 14 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Good
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it honestly makes zero sense for both WS to do the same damage under the same conditions. something else has to be going on.
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#36 Dec 14 2010 at 4:53 PM Rating: Decent
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He used souleater twice, 35 mins interval so he could use both during his guillotine spam or both during his quietus spam, no way to tell.
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#37 Dec 14 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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pochenlai wrote:
I am all for figuring out the relation between guillotine and quietus, so if you have some parse result it would be great since you have had the weapon for 2 months. From every where I heard, it is a mediocre WS, I understand you want to hype it up since you have it and worked hard for it obviously, but if you look at it from the math side, it definitely isn't something that is going to "destroy" guillotine. It might do slightly higher damage thanks to higher WSC, but guillotine has a combined 3.875 ftp while I believe quietus is at 3.0 or 3.5. I want to believe that it is good too hence the initial impression, but when the guy average almost the same with quietus and guillotine under exactly the same buff (note that I am not comparing him to myself, I am comparing his guillotine to his quietus), it is hard not to take note. Not to mention, I have already stated that we were in an abyssea party of no buff, so if anything, it definitely favored quietus a bit in case the attack is not capped. Like I said, I have no idea what atma he was using, but none would significantly boost one ws or the other, so I am not sure what the a lot of missing info is coming from. If anything, I thought it was pretty obvious.


I've also got Ukko's Fury so I don't have a stake in "hyping up" Quietus. Once you do a few 6k WSs on WAR you kind of forget Quietus exists.

The only "math" I've seen on Quietus is from tests that I did. So you're disagreeing with me using info you got from me. The mods listed on wiki are from tests that I did. And even that info is inconclusive because I got Maschu +1 shortly after that. As far as I know nobody else has tested the WS, at all, so I dunno where you pulled your info from.

You have no idea what buffs he was using on either WS. You had to to re-check the parse to even see when he used Souleater. Did he use Stalwart's? You don't know do you? What about food? Did any of the mobs have Dia on them?

I use this WS pretty much everyday, on anything from EXP level mobs, to HNM level mobs. I've said numerous times it's a nice WS but really mediocre compared to **** near any other new WS obtained via WoE and Empyrean path.

However, it's not inferior to Guillotine. You're incorrect.



Edited, Dec 14th 2010 5:23pm by Hexagram
#38 Dec 14 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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First of all, I didn't get the mode from wiki, I got it from studio gobli. If you go see wiki, wiki doesn't even have the ftp listed.

Second of all, so if he used drinks (which I can tell you he did every time it is there, so it is safe to assume that he did have drinks on when using both WS equally), used food, mob has dia on them, what does that have anything to do with the cap of the two relative WSs? You are saying Quietus destroys Guillotine, how? You have a WS that is supposedly easy to reach the cap due to the ignore defense trait vs a WS that has a combined higher ftp but harder to reach the cap due to attack not capped without buff. So you are saying the reason his guillotine and his quietus number are similar is because he was fully buffed when using guillotine and not fully buffed when using quietus? If that's not biased then I don't know what is. Note that he didn't just use mix them together, he was using like 75 quietus and then 30 guillotine, so he definitely didn't mix them in and use according to his buff.

I mean, seriously, I have seen your SS of quietus damage, yours is slightly higher than his but you have better gears. You have been posting those 2k, 2.5k, 3k ones that are supposedly your high ones. If guillotine with high buff can put out similar damage without SE, then it makes Quietus a pretty mediocre ws no?

No one is saying it sucks, but it is mediocre and comparable to a fully buffed guillotine. Unless your definition of destroy is 100-200 higher damage on a 2k thing.

Edit: also, you don't need to be so offended, if you want, show us what you think your average guillotine and average quietus are under the same condition.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 7:45pm by pochenlai
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#39 Dec 14 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Good
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I think the big **** issue with all Empyrean WS is people get so jacked up on Atma and the sudden extreme weapon damage increase around the same time they switch they don't realize their old WS is doing just as much crazy schizo damage too. This serves only to inflate the value of the new WS as compared to pre-Abyssea 'best' numbers for older WS. 2k Guillotines without Souleater are no stretch with just VV, I was doing them with a piddly 105 damage scythe, so another 20 damage or so should close it more.

Hex, swing a few Guillotines in your best gearing with the same buffs as Quietus, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised by its output.

Nobody should be comparing in-Abyssea 2.5k+ Quietus numbers with pre-abyssea 1.2-1.4k Guillotine numbers. It's just pants-on-head retarded to do so.

Quietus sucks not because it hardly beats Guillotine but because it doesn't crit and has the same **** mod combination (gimped on the STR too) that SE can go eat a bag of **** over. If Quietus was 75% STR modded we wouldn't be **** because that would make it a clear winner, but 50% MND? Seriously SE WTF.
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#40 Dec 14 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Good
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quietus is only gimp when compared to the other empyrean WS. a nice consistant 1500-2k ws on scythe was exactly what most folks have been asking for for the last few years. well, we got it. what we didn't know was that 4-6k was going to be the new high-end norm. GO FIGURE.
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#41 Dec 14 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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pochenlai wrote:
First of all, I didn't get the mode from wiki, I got it from studio gobli. If you go see wiki, wiki doesn't even have the ftp listed.

Second of all, so if he used drinks (which I can tell you he did every time it is there, so it is safe to assume that he did have drinks on when using both WS equally), used food, mob has dia on them, what does that have anything to do with the cap of the two relative WSs? You are saying Quietus destroys Guillotine, how? You have a WS that is supposedly easy to reach the cap due to the ignore defense trait vs a WS that has a combined higher ftp but harder to reach the cap due to attack not capped without buff. So you are saying the reason his guillotine and his quietus number are similar is because he was fully buffed when using guillotine and not fully buffed when using quietus? If that's not biased then I don't know what is. Note that he didn't just use mix them together, he was using like 75 quietus and then 30 guillotine, so he definitely didn't mix them in and use according to his buff.

I mean, seriously, I have seen your SS of quietus damage, yours is slightly higher than his but you have better gears. You have been posting those 2k, 2.5k, 3k ones that are supposedly your high ones. If guillotine with high buff can put out similar damage without SE, then it makes Quietus a pretty mediocre ws no?

No one is saying it sucks, but it is mediocre and comparable to a fully buffed guillotine. Unless your definition of destroy is 100-200 higher damage on a 2k thing.

Edit: also, you don't need to be so offended, if you want, show us what you think your average guillotine and average quietus are under the same condition.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 7:45pm by pochenlai


You can't compare my Quietus to his....it makes no sense. You said his was 1500-2500ish on EXP level mobs with Souleater. Mine was on HNM level mobs (Eccentric Eve) and various NMs around Abyssea for 1700-2.9k, without Souleater. Hell, for the sake of argument let's say I used Souleater on a few of those....Guillotine would still benefit more from it and he did less damage on weaker mobs.

1500-2500 on EXP level mobs isn't mindblowing damage, especially not with Souleater. It's borderline terrible damage actually. Hell, that's 2005 EXPing in Sky damage. You can't look at someone who is obviously performing well beneath the potential of the WS and make declarative statements like you are. And for the record I have no idea what a Studio Gobli is....the only reference to mods I've seen on the 'net is from tests that I've done.

Secondly I have no idea what buffs he had, or what gear he used. How do you know I have better gear than him, you said you didn't check him.

Lastly, nobody is averaging the same damage as my Quietus with Guillotine on the same mobs. Not even me. Trust me I've tried. For example, use Guillotine on Pascerpot. Can you do multiple 2.3k-2.7 Guillotines in a row, without BRD, COR, or Souleater? With just atmas and food? No.

If people could pull comparable damage Guillotines out their **** at will nobody would be saying DRK is currently the gimpest DD in the game.

If I get around to it I'll get a parse running and compare the two WS. But again, I finished Maschu+2 recently and use it and Ukko's Fury for pretty much everything now.

Edited, Dec 14th 2010 10:57pm by Hexagram
#42 Dec 14 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Raelix wrote:
I think the big **** issue with all Empyrean WS is people get so jacked up on Atma and the sudden extreme weapon damage increase around the same time they switch they don't realize their old WS is doing just as much crazy schizo damage too. This serves only to inflate the value of the new WS as compared to pre-Abyssea 'best' numbers for older WS. 2k Guillotines without Souleater are no stretch with just VV, I was doing them with a piddly 105 damage scythe, so another 20 damage or so should close it more.

Hex, swing a few Guillotines in your best gearing with the same buffs as Quietus, you'll probably be pleasantly surprised by its output.

Nobody should be comparing in-Abyssea 2.5k+ Quietus numbers with pre-abyssea 1.2-1.4k Guillotine numbers. It's just pants-on-head retarded to do so.

Quietus sucks not because it hardly beats Guillotine but because it doesn't crit and has the same sh*tty mod combination (gimped on the STR too) that SE can go eat a bag of **** over. If Quietus was 75% STR modded we wouldn't be **** because that would make it a clear winner, but 50% MND? Seriously SE WTF.


I've never seen Guillotine do anywhere near the same damage as Quietus, anywhere, unless Souleater was involved. Trust me I've messed with this WS inside and out. And it's not "oooh, close!" damage, Quietus outdamages Gullotine every single time by 300+ damage. I'm talking on EXP level mobs, on HNM level mobs, on anything you can name, inside and outside of Abyssea.

I have no problem saying Quietus is a gimp WS compared to some of the other Empyrean ones but it's easily better than Guillotine. It's kind of a pointless debate though because Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite, and even Fudo, the other "gimp" WS outshines every WS DRK has.
#43 Dec 15 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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It's kind of a pointless debate though because Ukko's Fury, Victory Smite, and even Fudo, the other "gimp" WS outshines every WS DRK has.


this.
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#44 Dec 15 2010 at 2:40 AM Rating: Default
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Not according to what little has been parsed of Torcleaver, but I suppose that will have to wait.
#45 Dec 15 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Good
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You can't compare my Quietus to his....it makes no sense. You said his was 1500-2500ish on EXP level mobs with Souleater. Mine was on HNM level mobs (Eccentric Eve) and various NMs around Abyssea for 1700-2.9k, without Souleater. Hell, for the sake of argument let's say I used Souleater on a few of those....Guillotine would still benefit more from it and he did less damage on weaker mobs.

1500-2500 on EXP level mobs isn't mindblowing damage, especially not with Souleater. It's borderline terrible damage actually. Hell, that's 2005 EXPing in Sky damage. You can't look at someone who is obviously performing well beneath the potential of the WS and make declarative statements like you are. And for the record I have no idea what a Studio Gobli is....the only reference to mods I've seen on the 'net is from tests that I've done.

Secondly I have no idea what buffs he had, or what gear he used. How do you know I have better gear than him, you said you didn't check him.

Lastly, nobody is averaging the same damage as my Quietus with Guillotine on the same mobs. Not even me. Trust me I've tried. For example, use Guillotine on Pascerpot. Can you do multiple 2.3k-2.7 Guillotines in a row, without BRD, COR, or Souleater? With just atmas and food? No.

If people could pull comparable damage Guillotines out their **** at will nobody would be saying DRK is currently the gimpest DD in the game.

If I get around to it I'll get a parse running and compare the two WS. But again, I finished Maschu+2 recently and use it and Ukko's Fury for pretty much everything now.


Ok, first of all, he used souleater twice, so the chance it effecting the result is very minimal consider how many WS was performed, and without knowing if he used with guillotine or with quietus. Second, like I said, what does buff or no buff have anything to do with the comparison? if it was in a relatively no buff situation, let me ask you which WS would benefit the most from a no buff situation? a WS with ignore defense or a WS that is multihit? Third, it is not hard to know that his gears are worst than yours, not hard to do now a day with ffxiah (Ivaan is the name, you can check, and you can tell me if you think your gears are better than his). Fourth, studio gobli is a JP website that is usually first hand on every game related mechanic, they were the one that figured out mob stats and alot of WS property when this game was in its darkage. So the information from there is usually very very accurate if not conclusive. Just for information purpose, it is saying that the WS is 3.0 ftp 40% str and 40% mnd.

So you put up those numbers on HNM etc etc, why does Ground strike do better than Spiral **** on HNM type of mob despite a lower ftp and low weapon base damage? Duh... the ratio bonus, and why does your number look so good on HNM? Duh... ignore defense. You seem to think fighting HNM and fighting EXP mob should make a huge difference on this WS, which is exactly what it isn't about. It is a spinning slash +1 that is very consistent and does well on harder mobs. Ask yourself do you do that much more with this WS on EXP mob than on HNM like you seem to describe? You ask a question, can you do multiple 2.3-2.7k guillotine in a row without BRD, COR? (took out SE cuz it is not needed) I will say no, and I have been saying no. But my point is with the proper buff not including souleater, guillotine can do just that.

I am comparing the cap of the two WSs, Quietus is easier to cap while guillotine is alot harder to cap, that doesn't mean Quietus caps higher. I am merely saying the type of damage Quietus is putting up is achievable by guillotine giving enough buff excluding SE not under the same buff, which IMO makes it a mediocre WS, but is it useful on HNM? sure it is, no one is denying its usefulness.

I was shocked that his guillotine was so close to his quietus, that's something I would never have expected. So I don't think you need to be so defensive, I was once in the school of thought that Quietus is by far the better WS until he started spamming guillotine. Maybe you just haven't spammed guillotine enough lately?

But anyway, take it as what it is worth. You can say the player is gimp, wrongfully geared etc etc, but in the end, which kind of player is going to benefit more from a WS that ignores defense? you should know the answer. There is a reason any gimp sam who uses gekko can put up decent WS number while a gimp drk will have a hard time putting up decent guillotine number.
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#46 Dec 15 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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pochenlai wrote:

Ok, first of all, he used souleater twice, so the chance it effecting the result is very minimal consider how many WS was performed, and without knowing if he used with guillotine or with quietus. Second, like I said, what does buff or no buff have anything to do with the comparison? if it was in a relatively no buff situation, let me ask you which WS would benefit the most from a no buff situation? a WS with ignore defense or a WS that is multihit? Third, it is not hard to know that his gears are worst than yours, not hard to do now a day with ffxiah (Ivaan is the name, you can check, and you can tell me if you think your gears are better than his). Fourth, studio gobli is a JP website that is usually first hand on every game related mechanic, they were the one that figured out mob stats and alot of WS property when this game was in its darkage. So the information from there is usually very very accurate if not conclusive. Just for information purpose, it is saying that the WS is 3.0 ftp 40% str and 40% mnd.

So you put up those numbers on HNM etc etc, why does Ground strike do better than Spiral **** on HNM type of mob despite a lower ftp and low weapon base damage? Duh... the ratio bonus, and why does your number look so good on HNM? Duh... ignore defense. You seem to think fighting HNM and fighting EXP mob should make a huge difference on this WS, which is exactly what it isn't about. It is a spinning slash +1 that is very consistent and does well on harder mobs. Ask yourself do you do that much more with this WS on EXP mob than on HNM like you seem to describe? You ask a question, can you do multiple 2.3-2.7k guillotine in a row without BRD, COR? (took out SE cuz it is not needed) I will say no, and I have been saying no. But my point is with the proper buff not including souleater, guillotine can do just that.

I am comparing the cap of the two WSs, Quietus is easier to cap while guillotine is alot harder to cap, that doesn't mean Quietus caps higher. I am merely saying the type of damage Quietus is putting up is achievable by guillotine giving enough buff excluding SE not under the same buff, which IMO makes it a mediocre WS, but is it useful on HNM? sure it is, no one is denying its usefulness.

I was shocked that his guillotine was so close to his quietus, that's something I would never have expected. So I don't think you need to be so defensive, I was once in the school of thought that Quietus is by far the better WS until he started spamming guillotine. Maybe you just haven't spammed guillotine enough lately?

But anyway, take it as what it is worth. You can say the player is gimp, wrongfully geared etc etc, but in the end, which kind of player is going to benefit more from a WS that ignores defense? you should know the answer. There is a reason any gimp sam who uses gekko can put up decent WS number while a gimp drk will have a hard time putting up decent guillotine number.


Quietus is better than Guillotine on harder mobs. Can everyone agree on that?

That still means it's better than Guillotine over all. Why? Because it takes 2 hours to go from 85-90 nowadays. After that for the next 3 months you'll be fighting the harder NM and HNM level mobs Quietus shines on. So yes, Guillotine is better than Quietus for 2 hours every 3 months.

Or, let's say with the best buffs possible Guillotine could probably do comparable/better damage. I dunno how you do Abyssea but we low man everything...you can duo or trio pretty much every seal/T2/lotto/spawn NM in the zone, and kill the bosses with 6 people, if not less. So nobody needs a COR, or BRD....or a DRK for that matter. If you happen to get into a group that kills Glavoid (for example) no one is going to say "damn, we need a BRD to buff these melee!"....not when we are already capped on Attack, ACC, crits, and have +200 to each stat. If you need a BRD or COR on top of all that to do good damage with Guillotine, while I can do 2.9k on comparable mobs without it, that still makes Quietus better because it's the same result with less effort
#47 Dec 15 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Finally we are on the same page. Totally agree with your post, and I have been saying the same thing. It just happen that our definitely of mediocre is a little different.

In the old days, not getting any buff was consider normal, and thus Spinning slash was consider a good WS.

More recently, not getting any buff was consider abnormal (actually, I have heard alot of ppl who were saying, if you don't play melee in a party of Cor, Brd, and Dnc, you are doing it wrong), and thus Guillotine was consider a good WS due to its high ftp cap and high end damage with full buff, and on the other hand, SS was consider a mediocre WS.

Now a day, with abyssea, everything and everyone lowman things with atma, which includes my LS that usually don't have more than 8 ppl on, and I haven't used DRK in a LS event since RR atma, so Guillotine is now consider a bad WS, tho primarily because it can't critical and partly because it requires high buff to even be comparable to some of the bad WSs.

I guess I am trying to say that I am still more in the "more recently" mode. Quietus is obviously a better WS than Guillotine, I have not denied that since the beginning. What I was trying to say is that when situation allows, both cap at around the same damage mathematically and perhaps practically for some. So for those who don't have Quietus and somehow is able to go to LS event as DRK, you can do the amount of damage that is seemingly impossible to do with Guillotine by having a good amount of buffs etc. It doesn't mean it is easy to do, but it is doable. As I have said it before, my post was an impression of how shocked I was to see the similarity in damage, and as I dig deeper I realized why that's the case. It wasn't like I had an agenda to try to say that Quietus is nothing more than a 1 hit Guillotine in your normal exp party.

But anyway, good luck to us drks and hopefully we can get a critical hit WS at 400 skills, then we will be back on the market. It is quite possible that we will get a fastcast trait similar to blm's at higher level, and I wonder an Impact build with Twilight cloak while waiting for mob to get to melee range would be a good idea in the future. All that is obviously assuming we get a critical hit WS, otherwise nothing will be worth it.


Edited, Dec 15th 2010 4:36pm by pochenlai
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#48 Dec 15 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Fortunately for DRKs, it's looking like we've almost reached the end of Abyssea. It's glaringly clear these expansions were intended for the level cap at the time of their addition. Now with people getting 200,000 Primal Brews, Abyssea is becoming nothing more than a playground of fan service (which was to be expected).

Hopefully soon with new true endgame, DRK will go back to its old position of being a strong, yet less desired, damage dealer.
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#49 Dec 28 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Recently got espafut+2, but haven't gotten a chance to play with it. I did however lvl my pld from 85 to 90 using the +1 (got my last bunch of hkc in that alli).

Coming from an nq player perspective (using full perle, swapping a whole two pieces of gear for ws (belt and helm to warwolf/varangian) because I forgot other stuff) it was pretty underwhelming at the start. Lvled on **** in chasm, using RR/VV atmas, cruor buffs amounting to ~+40, /nin, mithkabobs, and having underleveled greatsword skill left torcleaver being like spinning slash. Stalwarts pushed it a bit higher, but I saw bigger gains by just lvling. By 90pld I finally saw 2k dmg spikes and fairer averages (still +1 version), but it still didn't compare much to just using vorpal blade.

I'd imagine getting skill capped, better food/gear/buffs/etc, will push this ws a good bit, but I'm not as sure about what I can get for some spots. Obviously getting zone boss and caturae clears will open up nice gears and 3rd atma, I'm a few bosses/cat away for that. Never did get ares body, though it is a lot easier and much much cheaper to get one now (I need some chariot kills for dark depths as well, imp wootz ingots are at ~90k on ramuh atm lol).

I think I can get a 6hit with espafut's 466 delay: askar body, rose grip, brutal earring, rajas ring, hoard ring, goading belt, /sam for 5+4+1+5+4+5+15 = 39store tp (using sam's 464 6hit needs) but would need to ws with hoard ring and goading belt on I think, missing out on warwolf belt and spiral ring (+10str/vit combined). In abyssea I could get away with the swaps due to VV's 2tp/tick...


Least the ws is cool looking... I still love you greatsword! :(
#50 Dec 28 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Decent
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That sounds about right. You have to remember this, Torcleaver has absolutely no ratio bonus, so attack is extremely important. I image you are extremely low on pdif in abyssea as a pld, so the low damage is fully expected. I am actually surprised that it still did more than Spinning slash consider how Gekko > Kaitan for the same reason on hard mobs. Once you have your GS skill capped, better gears and better support and a 3rd atma should boost it greatly. If you do pld/war and berserk, you will see a huge increase in damage I expect.
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#51 Dec 29 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Good
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I'm not a DRK, i'm just posting. Take the debate away from Emp ws's becasue the majority of DRK's will still be using Guil (or SS) or both.


A ls member has the +2 100TP GS, and is putting out 1.1-1.5K SS's using just (RR)/VV. Wouldn't the potential of this WS rise beyond Guilotine if once she got her 3d lunar she was using VV/SB/AO?


I personally think the gap between scythe and GS has closed some - and this is from a completely non-biased opinion in the current abys enviroment.




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