Dnc have a place in Nyzul?Follow

DNC is a very solid job for Nyzul. Party leaders generally dismiss it for a few reasons. I imagine the main ones are that it can't be pigeon-holed into one specific role and that there is extremely high level of skill involved, i.e. it's a risk to take one if you don't know the capabilities of the player.

You have to consider the entire package when you bring a DNC to Nyzul. I don't quite understand why people don't think a DNC can DD. Mobs inside Nyzul are generally no higher than decent challenges. I think we can all agree that DNCs can completely destroy low-level mobs. Furthermore, the mix of DD, debuffing, and enhancing everyone on the front line is extremely potent. This is particularly noticeable if you're teamed up with a BRD and mage Haste.

Admittedly, DNC is less than stellar on the bosses themselves if you only account for the DD perspective. For example, Fafnir's Hurricane Wing is devastating to a group of melees because the blindness it inflicts is unusually nasty. However, Quickstep, Desperate Flourish, and Pyrrhic Kleos make this much more bearable. You can see the difference you make if you know where to look.

Violent Flourish is useful; that goes without saying. I'm sure anyone will suddenly appreciate a DNC's input if you get those extremely unlucky White Magic restriction floors. :p

Another facet: for lamp floors, a DNC can traverse the floor quickly and safely with the use of Jigs. Similarly, they can dash back to floor up if the situation calls for it.

I could go on, but that's a rough-and-ready summary of what a DNC is capable of in Nyzul. People need to understand that an excellent DNC fills in the gaps in the party's structure. Not all jobs can readily adapt in the same way as a DNC can. Therefore, in an assault where literally anything can be thrown at you, a DNC can take it head-on and look fabulous doing it all at the same time.

My personal experience with dnc is that it is welcome ONLY if you have strong support from the rest of the party. In other words, you won't be taking the place of any roles of any other jobs.

When I first started climbing nyzul I was solely DNC for the first 20 floors. On some runs I acted as the sole healer, which for me was hell because not only was there too much randomness to effectively plan through, but my DDs were always gung ho about rushing in and taking down mobs when needed. Sure it was probably poor management that contributed to that problem, but my abilities limited me at certain points.

As just support it wasn't as bad. Being able to erase that nasty bio from flayers was nice when we ran out of clerics. And helping heal alongside the rdm worked well.

After a while I realized that replacing my dnc with my rng made our runs go much smoother. I was able to help sleep adds with sleep bolts and of course deal massive damage to mobs and bosses. Since this is a timed event, killing fast and moving on is probably the more optimal choice than bringing along a hybrid job such as dnc.

on the 60-100 boss, i think dnc would have a lot of trouble : they have strong paralyses, cerby and hydra stoneskin/physical shield(no tp) and khimaira tp reset...
also, most of theses boss attack are aoe magical attacks, and divine waltz isn't exaclty good. being in range, the dmg you take would probably negate a lot of your healings...

so on theses, i think a dnc would probably be better replaced by almost anything... sorry.

lol this is one of the reasons why I leveled thf. I have blown through way too many tokens for boss farming before while not seeing hardly any armor drop due to not having any TH. Now not only do I exclusively use thf in nyzul now, but I'm actually enjoying the job.

...sorry a bit of a derailment but had to throw that in there XD

-Secretkeeper

All good points, actually. Thank you for the detailed perspective! I hadn't really thought about the whole being self-sufficient thing for lamp floors.

-Nicolette

Ah yes I'd forgotten about Dnc's ability to spike heal, thanks for bringing that one up.

-Milich

Good points. Sometimes taking the lead is the only way to get people to see things outside of their box. And I do agree that Dnc does have decent DD potential, but not top-notch where it's needed compared to those jobs implied there.

-Kalisa

I completely agree with this as well. Dnc on its own has untapped potential that can moreso be brought about in the company of others, in others words it provides an extension to what is already present.

-DarkBiBi

It seems that the boss floors leave a little more to be desired for Dnc and I will definitely take extra caution when considering Dnc for boss runs.

-Krysllyn

After reading all of the excellent info here, this statement pretty much sums up what I've failed to fundamentally understand, and probably explains the same reasoning for Dnc being denied for the Nyzul runs I've mentioned.

Yes. Play it like you would PLD; come to DD.



I've done several series of no-drops runs with a THF. What should I blame my no-drops on?

because nyzul is mostly things that are T or less, I just ate pizza and use Dag/Joyeuse for WS spamming for climbs. Then for the last climb before boss floor, I switched to dagger/dagger and stored to 300% (if possible) for massive curebombs etc.

I find DNC somewhat broken in nyzul. We can haste samba and do massive DD, or we can do support.

I feel like Nyzul is easy enough that it can be done with any job. The only thing that makes people fail nyzul floors are when people cannot do the objective (such as lamps, or the really huge floors that are kill-all)

I had done Nyzul with a wide variety of jobs including DNC itself. The trick with Nyzul is teamwork and luck.

A larger problem with Nyzul bosses are actually getting there with enough time left to get ready (or even getting to that floor before time up), rather than actually fighting the boss itself. Given enough time, any reasonable combination of jobs with buff potions can take down pre-60 and post-60 with relative ease. You do not need relic weapons or Kraken Clubs if you have like 7-8 minutes left for the boss floor.

Nyzul Isle doesn't a very strict job requirement anyway; at one point my group's static members were something like: BRD, WHM, SAM, RNG, PLD, and THF (who was WAR for climbing)--if any absence, we filled in the missing spots with whatever DD-ish jobs available on the LS. While not exactly optimal with BRD and PLD in there, we got from floor 1 to 100 and farmed bosses with that, and I stayed as PLD until my SAM reached Lv.74. heh.

The standout jobs from my experience are actually WHM and BLU, to be honest, but I can easily see where DNC can fit in. Really, I can see a place for PUP, SMN, BST, and etc. just as easily. (Well, maybe slightly harder for SMN, but I'm sure we can make it work. lol.)



Edited, Mar 12th 2010 4:48pm by IfritnoItazura

Edited, Mar 12th 2010 4:53pm by IfritnoItazura

Whaaaaat.

I don't really care for bard in nyzul. Other than the boss fight it's too fast paced to keep songs up. I think people just get excited when bard is around.
Dancer on the other hand is an awesome job in nyzul. Tanking healing and debuffing.
I usually drop party when people ask me to come bard over dnc.

Yeah, I think you guys got some subpar BRDs, because I can't really think of how anyone would turn down a good BRD for Nyzul in much the same way that I can't see how anyone would turn down a good BRD for a roaming EXP party. >_>

For me BRD has been a godsend for:

- Any floor with flans that must be killed. They seem to die way too slowly without one; maybe this has more to do with the quality of melees rather than the BRD, but these are just generally way easier to take down with a BRD in my experience.

- Any soulflayer floor. Ice Spikes really slows things down if you can't remove it. The only dispel alternative here that's coming to my mind right now is BLU, because dark-based dispels will never work. Also, if you happen to piss off more than one at once, guess who has a light-based sleep and is capable of sleeping them (whereas dark-based sleep will always fail as well)? Even if you don't get links, BRD is still an awesome ghetto-stunner for any -ga nukes from these guys if you don't have anyone with a means of stun.

- Leader floors. These are generally the hardier mobs as opposed to all the Easy Prey crap you have to sift through on most other floors and you probably will not be taking them down in 15 seconds, so there is no excuse for a BRD to not be able to get his sh*t set up. Certain NMs/Dahaks on Kill All floors also count, although with Dahaks you will want to be careful of Nullsong; make sure not to MPK your party with buffs.

- Boss floors (as opposed to floor-climbing runs). Guess what kind of Nyzul runs are the only kinds people ever want to do? Soul Voice is also an incredible 2hr here and a potential ass saving move if you have rough floors and get to the boss with only 2-3~ minutes left. I've had a few runs where everyone in the group was convinced we'd time out, only for Soul Voice to come out and enable a quick zerg to save the day. Not saying that it always will; you can always get a bitchy Hydra that spams Pyric Bulwark, but it's unbelievably satisfying to be in a situation where you're sure you've lost and end up coming out a winner anyway.

- Storm Fife. Barring some huge disaster, your healer should never have a problem with upkeep if your BRD has this.

I have never had a problem with the BRD getting his ass beat on pulls, so I don't know what's up with that. BRD generally takes way less of a per-hit beating than the melees do (you already should be wearing Earth/Terra's for pulling; that's -20% phys damage right there, and BRD is capable of more), and I can usually handle my own HP with /WHM just fine without requiring any Cures from the healer (I try to maintain yellow HP for ring latent unless I see undeads).

Edited, Mar 18th 2010 6:19pm by Fynlar

In Nyzul, everyone pulls. >_> I was just saying that for the incidents when BRD pulls a mob.

On a lot of floors, you're usually splitting up looking for a particular mob(s) anyway, so when someone happens to find it they aren't exactly going to say "found it! BRD come pull this!" Unless of course, they have no safe means to pull it themselves (even though I highly recommend that everyone have some way to do so... FYI guys, all jobs can equip a Lamiabane chakram...)

Also, BRD can certainly pull and get songs up too. Just don't have the BRD bring the mob all the way back. Meet them halfway, start casting your sh*t, let the melees run up to you. Not that hard once you get in the hang of it and get used to how quickly your group moves.



You'll never hear me saying you need a BRD for Nyzul, but you also won't hear me say that they don't make it damn well easier if they're doing it rite.

Not trying to do a BRD vs. COR comparison here. CORs are very rare, and I can't even remember the last time I did Nyzul with one. Just saying, BRD is pretty sweet and doesn't make me wary to have in Nyzul at all, unlike jobs like PLD, THF, BLU, DNC, etc... which I've found to be rather terrible at DD output unless you know beforehand that they are good at their jobs.

It especially makes me sad when a group is willing to take a gimp ass THF along just for TH, when I'm not even convinced that Treasure Hunter even does anything for boss drops. I've had series of runs with no THF get multiple drops, I've had series of runs with a THF get diddly squat, and these have happened often enough for me to question the value of having TH along in Nyzul in the first place.



WHM is *awesome* counter for Tribulation, but still not so much against the Ice Spikes. :( The efficiency of Sacrifice + Esuna can be very fickle depending on how badly para wants to screw your Esuna cast, and even once you get it off, unless the mob's already dead, all the melee are just going to get paralyzed again soon after.



5 mins unmerited

A Pianissimo Ballad isn't that hard to apply though (and if you do both of them with Storm Fife, it will be a generally stronger Refresh than you could ever get with Evoker's), doesn't have the chance of hitting any of your melees, and still fires pretty quickly if you're using at least Minstrel's Ring and Yigit/Sha'ir.

TH definitely effects drops in nyzul like it does everywhere else...but its a case of another "FFXI job stigma" Everyone thinks that just because there is TH4 the mob will crap a diarrhea of drops automatically. And of course when it doesn't, the THF of course did something wrong...

I do agree with you that bringing along a crappy THF just for TH is wrong, but THF actually has a HUGE use in nyzul. For one its one of the few jobs that can dispel flayer ice spikes (yeah I know...lol 5 min timer but still possible). THF also has status bolts which has saved me on runs tons of times (acids to speed up kills, sleep to sleep links). And most importantly, at least in my case everytime I've gone THF to boss runs, THF makes an excellent tank. I always take a spy's drink and fanatics up with me. Pop spy's when the DDs are beginning their zerg so I can build TP and hate pretty quickly then once the top DD has enough hate, Accomplice him, SAWS, throw up eva gear and fanatics and I tank it the rest of the time. Even if the situation doesn't call for a dedicated tank, it does make the fights that much smoother.

Anyway...kinda went on a tangent there lol since I know no one mentioned THF being useless overall...but it's one of my fav jobs to take to nyzul so just had to throw that in there XD

Try 2 paladins, 3 warriors, 1 sam.

Paladin main healing ftw.