HSF and PSU questionsFollow

I have a couple of questions concerning HSFs and PSUs.

Let me start off with the HSF query.
I am looking at CORSAIR Hydro H70 CWCH70 120mm High Performance CPU Cooler to use on my i7 950 (3.06GHz) CPU, because I heard you can easily OC the CPU to around 4.0GHz with that HSF... is that true?

Also, I would like to know if the case I am getting will let me use that HSF. ...and are there sites online that actually tell me how to install that HSF onto the CPU (never installed a HSF that looks like that). And... do I need to buy anything else other than some thermal paste stuff in order to get this HSF up and running on the CPU?

Ok, on to the PSU question.
I read the other recent PSU thread and found out which PSUs to actually look at and I had a Corsair 850W one picked out and it was given the Kaolian approval, but I mentioned to Kao that I would like to maybe get a more powerful one if I was able to get enough money... I am still too poor for Enermax (sorry Kao), but I did find two Antecs I want to throw out there for opinions.

$150 - Antec CP-1000 1000W Continuous http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371036

$180 - Antec TruePower Quattro TPQ-1000 1000W Continuous Power http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371012

The first one looks to have more options (more SATA power cords) and higher output on certain voltages, but I am not really sure what to look for between the two.

I will only be running one GTX 480 video card, but I want to have the option to throw another into the machine in SLi if and when they get a little cheaper and I would like to have the PSU to handle two when the time comes.

Opinions? Education? Advice?


Edited, Sep 22nd 2010 11:13pm by PentUpAnger

Air cooling is always a challenge to optimize. Water is way more efficient, but can be quite expensive, and has a level of risk the casual builder doesn't always want to wrangle with. And if you don't get the right balance of airflow through the radiator to pull the heat out of the coolant, sometimes you can actually wind up with higher temps after a long session. If you don't want to make the jump to the water cooling, you could put in a Prolimatech Megahhalems and use some high velocity (1900-2000 RPM) Kaze-Jyuni fans instead of those stock 1200 rpm ones.

I have a Thermaltake that came with a similar fan setup, but not quite as wide (had to take out the 240mm side fan and put in 2 x 120mm to make room for it, as it fell about 8mm to short). That HAF says it supports up to 160mm CPU HS, and the Megahalems is right at 158mm. I run my e8400 E0 at 4 GHz and it hardly warms up at all with it mounted horizontally and a Khaze(at around 1200 RPM on fan controller) mounted so it vents upward into the top exhaust fan.

My biggest problem was the pocket of heat around the graphics card. I imagine you may have some challenges there too. That bugger could get up to around 64C under load--while the chipsets hover around 34C and the CPU around 41C. Ultimately what I did was reverse the one 120mm side fan close to the back and mounted it on standoffs so it is right near where the video card's HSF is bleeding the hot air. With that fan clearing out that hot spot, the GPU only runs up to around 58C under the same load.

You might want to just wait to see where you stand on the initial design. That case should have some nice crossflow, especially if you spend a little to get a higher velocity fan at the back. I think you can still grab the Khaze's pretty cheap (mine were like $9 each when I bought 3 at once). That would free up some cash for a better PSU for growth down the road.

Just a thought...

Raist

Good call on the hard drive, I like the 10K raptors. I'd still reccomend picking up a pair of 500GB or so internal drives to make a backup drive array as well ($40 ea) but you could do that at a later date.

The Asus board comes with their AI overclocker software and a good number of onboard heat sensors. It's not completely foolproof, but generally it will intervene before you melt your hardware. If you are going to overclock just a little bit, a better than stock CPU cooler would be advised. This one if on Air: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835118046 or that HSF you linked. Just don't take it up too high

3.2 on air should be easy, 3.4-3.6 might be attainable, you would have to watch the ram temperatures particularily though. If the system seems like it gets unstable, shut it down, let it cool down for a half hour or so, then drop the voltage.

As far as thermal cooling goes, Artic silver is still a good choice. There are some other options though now that offer a bit better cooling properties. The best of the best is supposedly the Indigo Xtreme cooler
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=46_58&products_id=28487

Newegg doesn't carry it.

All the reviews I have seen show 3 degree drop over artic silver. I haven't personally tried it yet, though I will be getting a set for the main gaming rig here next time I crack the case. It is kind of spendy, though it looks like it is reusable. Since overclocking is a possibility here, I'd spend the extra $20.

Other than that, you should be all set. Cooler master includes all the screws, motherboard standoffs, fans, etc. The motherboard includes all the internal data cables. Power supply comes with the power cable. I'm assuming you have an operating system disk somewhere.

Have you built a computer before yourself?

I guess I was looking at 320's. Sorry about that
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098
Still plenty big enough.

If you have existing 500GB's and they are SATA, may as well use those.

I actually might be getting a Seagate 1TB 7200rpm HDD and I'll partition it down to either 2x500GB or 4x250GB (give or take). I will also still be getting the HDD I linked to earlier as my OS drive still. the Seagate would just be for dataz. I am kinda leary about the Seagate HDD... from the reviews on Newegg they all seem to start out great... an dthen start to die within the first 6 months. I didn't catch what the model number was so I couldn't narrow it down to a single one, but I do know it was "ST31000....something" and of course Newegg has several models that start off like that. I am half tempted to just bite the bullet and buy either two 500GB WDs or one 1TB WD. My only experience with RAID was with RAID0 and I am kinda afraid to put anything into a RAID array... even if it was just data, mp3s, and videos.

I have another question about HSFs... considering I don't NEED a water cooled HSF or anything like that, But I would like to have something just a little bit better than the stock HSF...
What do you think about these three (3 different HSFs in a comparison window): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Productcompare.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100008000%2050001459&IsNodeId=1&bop=And&CompareItemList=574%7C35-103-065%5E35-103-065-S01%2C35-103-057%5E35-103-057-S01%2C35-181-012%5E35-181-012-TS

Did you see one that stands out as being better than the other two?

My other question is... how "tall" (or large) are these? Will they give me problems in my HAF 322 Red case I linked to earlier if I have that side fan installed? I looked but I can not find how much room the case has internally in regards to having that side fan installed and how much room I am dealing with in general... I just don't want to buy everything and then realize the HSF is too tall and I can't put my side fan in...

Thanks again.


Edited, Sep 24th 2010 7:47pm by PentUpAnger

The corsair is likely too tall. Newegg list it right at 160mm, and the HAF case says it can take up to a 160mm HS--that is likely without a side fan installed, as it doesn't look like it comes with one installed. So, you'd have to deduct a little more than the height of your side fan to see waht your limit is (want a little clearance b/t the side fan and the HS).

Newegg lists the Hyper N520 with 141mm height, which may be pushing it too--only have around 19mm to play with to squeese the side fan in there.

Newegg didn't list the dimensions of the Hyper 212 Plus, so had to go to their website to get it--right at 159mm. So, that's likely a no-go with the side fan installed as well.


So... with an internally mounted 200mm side fan, your best bet would be the 141mm N520... but it may be tight depending on just how high that fan is, and exactly where they will mount in relation to the HS. If it's the megaflow model they have on their site--it's 30mm high, which could be a problem. That could only leave you with only 130mm to work with if the fan will be mounted up there near the heatsink.

You might have to resort to what I did, and run 1 or two smaller fans on the side. The fan grid on my side panel was wide enough to put 2 120mm's side-by-side, so I could still get air forced in for my video card and RAM, but leave a big enough gap up top for the 160mm HS. Not as attractive, but it works.

Raist

I'm not Kao, but IMHO you can never have too large a drive for data.

As far as the spacing goes for those coolers, most of them conform to the ATX standard exclusion zone for processor heatsyncs, at least vertically off the board. Depending on the thickness of your particular fan and how you mount it, you could theoretically hit, but if I remember right, the HAF has a lower fan mount that will be out of the way of the exclusion zone entirely, and in that case, it will fit. IF the fan encroches, it might not, but you can always modify a side panel to move a fan if necessary.

Regarding the hard drives, the larger the data drives, the better. There is no benifit to partitioning those smaller under Windows 7 64 bit except conveniance if you prefer it that way. The "Ideal" setup from a speed perspective, would be Two Raptors in a raid 0 stripe backed up to the two Raid 1 drives periodically. Larger element of risk in a failure though at that point, and these days a 160GB SSD would be faster than a raid 0 array and about the same price.

EDIT IN: Bah.. I forgot that there is a 37mm space between where the HS starts and the actual pad is... meaning it would be ~158mm installed... Sorry.


Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the total height of the HSF 120mm? The HSF looks like the fan mounts to the side of the HS thus making the HSF wider (wider towards the case's top and bottom or front and back), but not taller (taller towards the case side).

The actual part of the HSF that touches the CPU is that little plate on the bottom where the copper tubes come from... and if the tallest part of the HS (where the copper tubes protrude out of the top of the HS) is close to 120mm, and the fan actually mounts to the SIDE of the HS... then the highest part would be 120mm-ish.

Or am I looking at the HSF wrong?

I have never installed a HSF like that one, but if you can actually mount two fans onto it it would seem like one fan (airflow in) would go on one flat side, and the other fan (airflow out) would mount to the other [flat] side... which would still make the HSF's tallest part around 120mm-ish, but would make the actual HSF wider, but not taller...

Seeing a HSF like this installed would help me visualize it a little more, but I think the way I explain it has to be right.

Edited, Sep 26th 2010 9:24pm by PentUpAnger

Edited, Sep 26th 2010 9:25pm by PentUpAnger

If you go with a zraxily tall heateync and a larger than normal fan inside the case, you might have clearance issues. Best bet would be to either wait on the large internal fan until you can measure clearance and then order it if it will fit, or mount the fan on the outside of the panel with a grill and bypass the entire issue.

It should fit though. the HAF is not an incredibly wide case, but it is a bit wider than some.

You look at the total height of the HS from the thermal interface side to the tip of it's heatpipe caps if they protrude out of the HS on the top. Top to bottom measurements are taken from the aspect of the CPU being underneath it and the motherboard is laid flat on the table (like it is when installed in a desktop model). It can be a bit confusing I guess as you always see a motherboard mounted vertically in a tower case and not horizontally, which is how they are measured.

The PSU section is sort of partitioned off from the motherboard section. Not a hard partition you can see in that case, but layout wise it is. There is a small tab that lifts up from the motherboard tray right above where the PSU goes in...sort of a guide line for where the top of it will be. So the PSU can actually run pretty much the full width of the case, minus the height of the motherboard's tray.

The motherboard mounts on top of that tray on standoffs (otherwise, it would short out). The motherboard has multiple layers, and then the CPU socket mounts on top of that. Then your CPU goes in there and (depending on the model) may have a heatspreader on top of it. With some HS designs, you have to include a thin shim with some CPU's. You also have to account for a little wiggle room on the HS design, especially when they are using heatpipes. The angle of the pipes may vary from each model produced, and if the pipes arent capped but crimped/soldered...they can have a slight variance of 1mm or so.

All this adds up to reduce the space available for the HS to sit on top of the CPU from what is linearly available between the two side panels of the case. All these little bits and pieces can take up as much as 37mm from the side side panel to the thermal interface of the HS on the motherboard's side, depending on how far in the motherboard tray is mounted to the chassis (they leave a slight gap b/t the tray and side panel for ventilation--some are also vented and gapped to put a small 10mm high fan in that side panel to help cool the VRM's and such from underneath the motherboard). The HAF specs specifically say up to a 160mm HS because that is what you can be assured will fit inside the case under typical installations. You might fudge a mm here and there because of variances, but not likely more that 165mm typically--unless they are accounting for the potential 200mm X 30mm fan going in there too...in which case you could potentially get 190mm for a HS. But... considering the PSU section allows for 190mm and that consumes all the space available above the motherboard tray, I would expect that 160mm note is the expected clearance from the top of the CPU to the side panel (but may actually be closer to 165mm).

So in order to make it work with a HS around 160mm in height, you will likely have to mount any sidefans below that HS. The big question is whether there is enough room to mount one below where the HS will be running up near the side panel. Looking at those views of the case and side panel again, if you measure the width of that PSU spot (190mm) and then measure up from that tab on the motherboard tray marking where the top of the PSU will run--you are right at the bottom edge of the exhaust fan. This puts you roughly within 10mm of the zone for your HS--so it looks like you will have a 200mm section to squeeze that side fan in there if you mount it to align with the bottom edge of that window. Depending on exactly how everything lines up, you may be able to mount it a little higher if you are not going to put a fan on the lower side of the heatsink.

Again...mount the CPU, HS, and all on the motherboard and put that side panel on there with no fan first to get a good idea of where you need to mount that fan first--especially if you will have to mod the side panel to mount it.

Raist

Edit:

Just noticed something else about that case. The top mount fan spec is for a 200mm fan. The grid for it is similar to my Thermaltake's layout case, except mine goes from edge to edge and houses 230mm fan. I have a prolimatech megahalems in there (159mm) and it's heatpipe caps are roughly 20mm from my side panel. So I would expect that 212 is going to run about the same in that HAF case. A bit of a gap, but not quite enough for a fan 30mm high.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 2:47am by BDHERTZER

wow...that is one beast of a case--shouldn't ever need to replace that thing.

The scythe fans are nice because (most of them) have a lower noise output for their throughput. Mostly where that "hair dryer" noise comes from is from how they are mounted. If you can find a way to not mount it directly to the panel (ie, some sort of standoff) it can greatly reduce the roar. However, at that high a CFM, it might need to be around a 1/2 inch stand off to virtually eliminate it. It's something you'll just have to tinker with when you get the rig.

A khaze jyuni might work for it too (rated about 110 CFM and 37dba), but I'm not sure just how much forced air you will need. As I stated earlier, I gave up on Nvidia a while back because of driver issues (which they eventually resolved for the 200 series, but they seemed to come back with the 400 series cards). One thing I do recall though, is those suckers generate a LOT of heat. I think the one I tried was a 285 card--forget...but it nearly burned my finger when I went to yank it out to take it back to Best Buy when I finally got too frustrated with it tanking all the time.

I think that's why the ATI's are still holding a decent market share--they run cooler and seem to have more stable drivers out, while still maintaining an acceptible performance curve. Just a word of caution about those nvidia's--they started putting metal plates on some of the coolers to help dissipate more heat and they can get pretty hot under load. So if you have to go in there after testing something, make sure the cards have time to cool off before you go touching them.

Not trying to convert you away from the choice, just a heads up that you may face some challenges. Might want to double check exchange policies where you are purchasing the card, just in case. There has been a lot of chatter about problems with non DX10/11 games on the 400 series cards, so you may want to bookmark the nivida forums in case you run into issues with certain games:

http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showforum=199

Last I looked, they were still having issues with FFXI and FFXIV, as well as some others still on the older DirectX API's (believe it or not, some of the newer games still run DX9, and not DX11, which is where the 480 outclasses everything). It should be noted that the long awaited FFXIV is running DX9c, in case that is one of your main targets. Some people have had to resort to modded 260 drivers to clear up issues with the FF games.

Raist

You should be fine with a standard fan in there unless you are really clocking the video card itcelf way higher than normal. If youa re doing that though, you should be water cooling anyways. As long as the card has a decent supply of cool air it will be fine.