Necessary classes for raidsFollow

Figured I'd shift the discussion out of the stickied thread for new/returning players, so New Thread(tm)!

Let me start with a caveat that I haven't really been near the raid game for like a decade or so, so this is all more theory than anything, but Sippen asked why a SK would be necessary for a raid. I don't have a great answer, since I also have never played a SK (though I know a few really kick *** ones). I also think that's somewhat of a narrow question/requirement. Very few classes could be called "necessary" for a raid. You could probably take any given raid and max out your capabilities to that raid by including just the exact numbers of each class needed for that particular raid and allow only that exact count of those exact classes on the raid. I'm pretty sure no one does this though. You start with what you have and you make it work. Certainly, raid guilds are going to recruit with an eye towards what they need, but that becomes a broader topic.

The question here is whether SKs fill a need for a raid that no one else can do better. I can only really think of one: They make arguably the best trash tank in the game. Warriors are great for taking hits from the big baddies, but have no self healing capabilities, and relatively set damage. So when you want someone to take out the main target of the raid, with tons of healing/debuff/whatever support, a warrior is king of the job. Knights are generally better at offtanking and trash tanking though. They require less healing (against anything that doesn't require *tons* of healing, obviously). However, out of the two knights, paladins are clearly better at straight up offtanking duties. They have similar mitigation abilities to SKs, but much much better self healing capabilities. And, of course, they have other healing/curing abilities that benefit the raid itself. While this was long ago, I do recall a raid where basically I was offtanking one of the main baddies by myself, with one druid assigned to "spot heal, as needed". A SK could probably not get away with that. The flip side though, is that SKs have much better damage than paladins. So if you just need someone to stand there and occupy a major mobs time without dying, a paladin is best. But if you want someone who can take a more medium level threat on, with minimal healing needed, and actually take a bigger chunk out of said mobs HPs along the way (ie: trash tanking), I'd think a SK would be the superior tank for that job.

SKs are kings of swarming, so they'd logically also be kings of trash tanking. A half dozen mid toughness mobs pop and for some reason must be engaged (can't be mezed maybe?), a SK would be the best at rounding them up and managing them (pretty sure SKs have better AE agro than paladins at least, and probably warriors too). Whether this qualifies as being necessary on a raid? No clue. Obviously, it would depend on the raid. A few months ago, I got picked up for an anniversary raid (no clue the name, but it was in an alternate version of ToFS, which was cool). The final fight basically just required a single tank fighting the main bad, with the dps stacked on it, and support folks standing at a distance healing/supporting. Pretty regularly, different types of mobs would pop up and start whacking people. As a paladin, I could grab one or two and try (feebly because my AE agro ability appears to be broke) to get more, but it was difficult to do the one thing I was assigned to do. A SK was much much better at it. And yeah, I'm sure that fewer people would have died if we'd had more SKs on that particular raid. So there's one example that I can think of, just out of my pretty limited experience.

I agree that it would be great to have someone who plays a high level raid SK to come in and discuss this. I'm sure that player would have much more to say about this than just us theorizing about it. I agree that SKs are pretty low on the recruitment lists. But I think that's not because they are absolutely unneeded, but that the ratio of SKs to need is a bit warped due to the high soloability of SKs as a class. So pretty much any raid guild is going to have more SKs than they will actually need. But that's not to say that the SKs they have don't fill useful roles. Again though, this is mostly just theory on my part.

The game has changed so much over the years that it really depends on when you are speaking about. The best SKs have ever been were equal trash / group tanks to Pallies and at times, 'kings' of killing completely trivial mobs... yay I guess...

Today, SKs are in their absolute worst position ever. Without VoT up, SKs now have the lowest hate of the tanks, AE aggro is a death sentence on challenging content, their self healing is woeful compared to Paladins (who even have a better 'lifetap' than what SKs have now), and provide no raid utility like buffs, obviously. In fact, with Warrior mitigation being in another league compared to knights and now doing more dps than SKs sustained (by just turning on attack and using 2her prof...) and in burns, there really is no reason to have an SK on a raid over a Warrior. People say 'to kite' and even that is wrong - 1. that is a BS 'role' and 2. other classes can do it better, such as Paladins, who have a run speed AA that SKs do not. SKs are on raids because of soft reasons - friendships, don't care about min / maxing raids, etc - definitely not because of what the class offers.

Chanters present a particular challenge to raid design. Basically, if you put a bunch of mezzable content in, they trivialize the content. But if you don't, the one "active" thing they can do on the raid is pretty much wiped out. With the focus (for a long time now) on scripted encounters, there's a need to not have a single class that can effectively solo counter the scripted stuff on half the raids out there. Of course, sometimes they balance this by making it up in volume, or putting in mixes of mobs with different immunities. That's always "fun".



There was a brief period (just pre and into early POP) where our guild regularly had a SK as the MT. We had one (yes, just one) adequately equipped/leveled warrior, and he couldn't always make raid day. And the SK was really well equipped (which was much much harder to do back then). It was not uncommon for us to only have three tanks on a raid. One warrior, one SK, and one paladin (me). We were a pretty lean casual raiding guild. We didn't hit the most current content, but we'd hit it later with a good strat and half the numbers. And darn it, we were good! (sorta).

It's a very different game today though. Back then, just getting to the target was half the battle. Maintaining buffs was incredibly difficult. And since fights weren't scripted, doing well wasn't about knowing the script and reacting to it properly, but a delicate balance of having the right folks who knew what to do (and what *not* to do), and mob positioning (which was an art form, that most tanks today don't know how to do because it's not that important anymore). I remember us doing Aaryadar (or however his name was spelled) in NToV with just under 24 characters. It was a super super tight battle. The strategy required keeping him positioned in a hallway just far enough from the casters so that his mana drain AE couldn't hit them, but close enough so they could heal/support/etc. This required swapping positions due to mob push, which in turn required coordination for all the dps folks, who'd die in a second if the tank turned the mob without warning. And if you got it wrong, the tank would either be pushed out of range and die from missed CH casts in the rotation, or get pushed too close, casters get drained, and the raid wipes due to lack of healing. Oh. And it was a really long fight (like easily 30 minutes). So mobs around the corner (where the casters were) would respawn several times during the fight and had to be dealt with. We finished that fight literally on the last dregs of mana. Don't think we lost anyone, so it was technically a "perfect" kill too (and frankly, we were so tight on people, that one death could very well have meant the difference between winning and wiping).

Those were the days IMO. Raids were far far more subtle in execution.

Hah! I'm having flashbacks to ancient PoH raids. The first couple hours of which consisted of sitting in the freaking port-in room while the pull team cleared the roamers. SK's (ideally 2 or 3 of them) were absolutely necessary for clearing that first floor area. Appropriately named plane, since I "Hated" that part. Hang out here. Don't sit. Don't touch a wall. Just wait. Every once in a while, a mob or three would show up and we'd fight. Rinse/repeat. Things at least got more interesting once you cleared to Maestro and Hand, and then headed upstairs (well, a bit, there was another bit of boring "wait while roamers get pulled" just upstairs, but it wasn't nearly as bad).

To be fair, Fear was appropriately named as well. First break of that plane, my heart was pounding in my chest and my hands were shaking. Could have something to do with the absolutely insane break technique, but still. Good times!

Reading posts by the 'old guard' here, is so much more refreshing than the current crop of posters on Reddit or Daybreak.
There you have your choice of:
- Hate mages/ how go i power level my mage?
- Hate boxers/use how do i use ISboxer?
- Hate Daybreak/ how do i buy krono?
- Hate SKs/ how do i swarm with my SK?
- Hate krono sellers/ how do make plat for krono.

I guess there is a maturity difference over here, but I am not sure if that is it.

Really, the main reason SKs and necros are not in high-demand for raid forces has to do with their solo-ability. As a rule the classes which solo best are the least valuable for grouping and, thru extension, for raiding. SKs and necros are probably the best soloers in the game. But that means the devs gave them abilities more suited to solo play than social play.

When I talk about "best soloers" I mean in overall terms. For example, druids can kill mobs solo infinitely faster than SKs but for the most part druids have little chance at defeating a summoning named. Both SKs and necros can handle that challenge very well.

Yeah, yeah, mages solo pretty well and are in high-demand for raids. The rule has exceptions. And a lot of that has to do with the tendency of the devs over the years to give some of the same important abilities to every class. (Like mages and druids can fade now, something they never could before.) Plus the coming of mercs changed this dynamic a lot since mages can now get themselves healed while soloing. Consider, though, the most raid-important classes, warriors and clerics, stink at soloing (as opposed to moloing.)

Yeah, yeah, bards solo decently and are in big demand for raids but consider that bards tend to earn XP solo rather slowly. Watch how long it takes a bard to chant-aoe down a pack of mobs. Jack of all trades, master of none.


Edited, Sep 4th 2015 8:16am by Sippin

Sorry, Thats just *************** me a n SK, or a Necro that can molo Combine..Or brothers Island. A Paladin can molo better then either in top tier TDS.



/GU Necromaticus Abominatio in 577s, 14007k @24276 / #1 Linden + pets 14007k@(24276 in 577s) [100%]

Linden -vs- Necromaticus Abominatio: -- DMG: 14006558 -- DPS: 24275 -- Scaled: 24275 -- Slash: 5639590 -- DirDmg: 4587428 -- Slay: 3546086 -- Bash: 147704 -- Environmental: 85750 -- % dmg as normal: 53.2% -- % dmg as critical: 43.6% -- Non-crit rate: 84.3% -- crit rate: 14.9% -- crippling rate: 0.8% -- Attempts: 2283 -- Hits: 1983 -- Missed: 300 -- Accuracy: 86.9% -- Avg Hit: 7063 -- Max hit: 181863 -- DMG to PC: 9570848

/GU Lidia the Castaway in 159s, 10928k @68728 / #1 Linden + pets 10928k@(68728 in 159s) [100%]

/GU Mulchmother in 406s, 10946k @26960 / #1 Linden + pets 10946k@(26960 in 406s) [100%]

Just to list a couple. Usually Pally / Wizzy merc works well...healer merc for Mecromantio. Although i have done it with a wizzy merc once before.





Edited, Sep 14th 2015 4:42am by RatheLinden

Oh, well that is easy to answer. Of course not. What utility do they bring? What primary role can an SK fill that a Paladin or Warrior cannot? But I can tell you several roles a Paladin can play that an SK cannot. Back healer, Splash cures, Tanking way better when stacking healing and defensive AA's, proc heals, etc.

Gbaji's points on raiding are so true. During my heyday in a raiding guild's leadership we always considered the player behind the toon more important than the toon, as long as we could meet the fundamental need of the raid for sufficient numbers of the required class "types": tank, healer, dps, puller, crowd control.

Guild/raid management is a fascinating topic, one which is complex enough to be suitable material for a master's thesis, I think, for someone studying business management or something in psychology. I'm not kidding here. This is especially true in the game back before EQ introduced so many tools which simplify organizing and controlling a raid force. Like back in Luclin days, gathering a raid force to run thru Vex Thal, a non-instanced end-game zone, was a real challenge. You could have two guilds both gathering in the entrance area, each waiting for a "critical mass" of raiders to arrive and organize themselves, because the first raid force to start clearing usually had the edge in getting to the nameds, with their valuable loot. You needed guild members who knew how to form appropriate groups and get buffs going, without a lot of direction.

Old-time raiders all have amusing stories about raiders like the one Gbaji mentions, who apparently didn't know their right from their left. Ninja-AFKers would always drive me nuts. I used to box a druid and enchanter on raids. Since this meant my enchanter would be auto-follow on the druid as we moved thru the corridors of Vex Thal, other players I knew would sometimes ask me to let them auto-follow me when they had to go AFK "for a minute." I was fine with that---within reason. But one guy abused this badly. He'd be AFK for 20 minutes and I'd have to pay attention to how his toon followed since Vex Thal has a lot of corners, with stanchions to get stuck on and fire pits to fall into. We all know how unreliable and slow-to-react the /follow command can be. As a guild officer I warned this guy more than once he couldn't go AFK so long but he persisted. At the limit of my patience, I let his toon run itself into a fire pit. He didn't die but he spent some time in that purgatory until I ported him out!

A lot of raids, especially "Old School", were simple and (relatively) easy enough, once the raid force learned how to manage them, that a raid could allow for marginal players of the sort we're discussing. But not always. For example, there's a Gates of Discord raid where all the raiders have to cram into this small room and then there's an emote sent to a specific raider and he has to react promptly and either click or say something. (I can't remember exactly atm.) If he fails, aoe spells wipe the whole raid. (It takes a LONG time to recover the raid force after that.) We used to make clear in this step that nobody could be afk and everybody had to know what to do and be alert. (This was the days before audio prompts.) IIRC, we never wiped in this room but I do recall that certain known ninja-AFK-prone guildies were not allowed on this raid. It was just too big a PITA risk to allow them to wipe the entire raid. It was for their own good, since we would probably have had to kick them out of the guild just to placate the irate membership!

The point of this long-windedness is this: as a guild officer I'd gladly add to my raid force an SK or necro who didn't go ninja-afk and paid close attention during difficult challenges like the one in this GoD raid any day over a top-geared, max-level&AA warrior or other "essential" class who screws up and serves up a 2-hour raid wipe recovery to the guild. Any day!

Yes I do. I grouped for a few years, raided for a number of years, and am a casual now (wife + 3 kids will do that). 105 SK, all important AAs, CotF T1 raid geared with a couple T2 pieces thrown in.

My comment on aggro abilities particularly called out that "without VoT", ie Voice of Thule. Short story, as has been relayed to me since I was away when the change happened, is an idiot dev decided SK terrors didn't need much hate any more, even though that is all they did. From my understanding, it took pulling teeth to get the VoT AA upgraded to compensate for the poor raw hate values on high level terrors compared to other tanks' abilities. Compare them on lucy - its stupid, but that is what they did to SKs for no good reason. As for other spells, outside of the Spear line, most aren't that great of hate at all - Terrors and Spear is your bread & butter for hate @ 105 (plus AAs).

As for AE hate, SKs do still have a lead in that area, but Warriors are very good at it too. Paladins need some love there - if hate generation is not class defining among the tanks, than AE hate shouldn't be either.

In my experiences with beta, chats, etc, devs have their favorite classes, pure and simple. Those classes never seem to hurt.

The smart guild recruiters have always been like this. "Recruit the player, not the class." It's awesome to have that maxed out (*cough*ebayed*cough*) warrior. But if they're a loot ***** who only makes 1 out of 4 raids and burns DKP on "toys", how valuable are they, really? Far better to have the Druid who plays 6-12 hrs a day, makes every raid, and follows instructions with zero drama. This was years ago though. Back when you could move to Stormhammer to get a free name change and then move to another server. The principle is sound though.



God, I hated this. **** or get off the pot already! This was why I loved FFA servers. FCFS as a concept was rife with people squatting on spawns "waiting for more clerics to log in". But guild mobility was usually an instance where a recruiting officer could mitigate a lack of inertia in the guild by loading up on members in East Coast time zones. Heck, I remember being a guild officer and pushing our recruiting officer to get more druids and wizards (back when nobody really wanted either unless they were basically overdeveloped for the content). Mobility was EVERYTHING, back when the midtier guild existed. There were usually 3-5 guilds (or more!) competing over the same spawns and being left to do Grieg because you weren't fast enough to Ssra to get XTC/High Priest/Emp/Cursed cycle SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCKED.



This has been true since Geoffrey Zatkin was the spell designer.

Ok. But does that actually make them the "worst" at generating aggro? Even with an extra aggro ability nerfed, that still leaves SKs with the same base aggro generating spell that paladins get (Impose for Power). Plus VoT when it's up. Which puts us down to other spells, on which I believe that SKs have an advantage. As mentioned, stuns are nice, but all DD spells also generate aggro as well, and SKs have a lot more of them (which do a lot more). I don't think dots do damage based aggro (just the aggro from the initial spell hit IIRC), so that's a disadvantage, but paladins basically have to sacrifice stunning for damage dealing. And frankly, when I'm in a group/raid setting and am not the main tank, I tend to ditch all of that for extra heals. I keep one stun "just in case", but other than that all stuns/crushes are off the spell lineup (still only have 12 slots, which I seriously think they should bump up, but that's another issue). I typically have a couple of the "do damage and heal/buff the targets target spells up", but honestly those are primarily for healing the MT when I'm *not* MT (slowish spell cast on those). And they don't generate a ton of aggro (cause, again, their primary purpose is to allow me to heal the MT, while still beating on the mob, plus half the effect is on the MT, making them inefficient aggro generators).

An argument could be made that after the terror nerf, SKs are no longer far far superior to others at aggro generation, but I'd hardly say they are the worst. I suspect this is a case of "grass is greener". To be completely fair though, I fully acknowledge that paladins are generally going to be more preferred for raids (AE healing/curing can literally make or break some raids). I'm certainly not whining or gnashing my teeth or anything here. I'm just saying that there are roles that SKs fill on raids, and it's unlikely that a raid will just tell a SK "no thanks" (baring some really tight number restricted encounters, of course).



I don't think anything is "class defining" here. We're just talking about multiple factors that lend to utility on a raid. And, as I pointed out earlier, trash sweeping is something that SKs arguably do better than any other class. Given that at least some number of raids (couldn't tell you what percentage) do have scripts with "at X point Y unstunnable/unmezzable mobs appear and attack", this does seem at least somewhat useful. Can raids get by without them? Sure. But raids can "get by" without most classes if they really need to. It's a matter of whether the presence of some members of a given class can make some parts of a raid easier on the raid force. And I think that every class can do *something*.

I guess I just don't buy the premise that classes can be put into "needed" and "unneeded categories" and that this significantly impacts them as a class. There are a host of classes that aren't needed, but are still useful. And there are a host of players who will be able to get their character into a raid regardless of what class they play. Put another way, it's terrifically hard to try to balance out classes and all aspects of the game (raid, soloing, grouping, etc) such that every class is equally useful in each. It's just not going to happen. Doesn't mean that you can't point out certain inequities to the devs and hope something gets done, of course.



I would agree with that. I'd also say that their overall preferences do tend to change over time. The wheel does turn.

Edited, Sep 16th 2015 4:19pm by gbaji