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Charm, dire charm, reverse charm...Follow

#1 Dec 02 2009 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Since it's been slow here, I'll just go ahead and post my meandering thoughts on charming (enchanter, but applies to necro and druid) with the hope of generating some discussion.

Having just spent the 9 aas on dire charm, I am finding it both surprisingly useful and at the same time mind numbingly boring.

You all know how regular charming goes:

1) Find something your charm spell will stick to and charm it.
---> if charm doesn't stick, mez, root, slow, kill, or gate.
2) Take your new best friend out and send him out to earn his pay.
---> root your pet when charm breaks, root/mez any mobs that had already aggroed as well. Recharm and start over. Carefully break mez/root on adds and bring them to your now rooted pet.
3) Exp! Loot! Profit!
4) When pet gets too low in health, invis and kill him too.
5) Find new pet, repeat.

Here's a quick run down on dire charming:

1) Find a level 46 mob in any PoP zone or lower. Click [dire charm].
2) Buff your pet as much as possible!
3) Target fodder, cast slow, send pet, toss in a dot, sit, med, loot, repeat.
4) Gate out when you can't stand the repetition any longer.

Quick comparison between charming and dire charm: genuine excitement vs. mind numbing drudgery. I feel like a bad mage when I am dire charming. I even started tanking with rune spells to work my defensive skills up rather than sit and do nothing.

But wait a moment, I mentioned something else up top... reverse charming? What's this anyway?

Reverse charming:
1) Find the nastiest mob you can charm, root, charm, buff with haste, damage shield, regen, everything including the kitchen sink. Invis to break charm and (quickly) charm something else.
---> Cast root again on instant death machine.
2) Send new pet against instant death machine paying close attention to your pet's health....
---> Cast root again on instant death machine.
3) 40%, 25%, 15% INVIS and break charm! Nuke almost dead pet for full exp!
---> Cast root again on instant death machine
4) Find another fodder pet, repeat.

I like charming, in case you haven't noticed. I haven't actually managed to muster the courage yet to try reverse charming because I've been holding out for a chance when one of my druid friends can come along to handle the root duty on the instant death machine.

After today though, and my mind-numbing experience with dire charm, I suspect I'll be trying out reverse charming sooner than I thought.
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#3 Dec 03 2009 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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I appreciate your reply. While I agree it is a grouping game, dire charm has group application. I've been doing Torden, Bastion of Thunder recently and it's not a cake walk with a small group. Now that I can dire charm one of the mobs there it will add significantly to our group DPS.

What is sad though is that after PoP, the ability seems useless.
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#5 Dec 03 2009 at 7:48 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Reverse charming:
1) Find the nastiest mob you can charm, root, charm, buff with haste, damage shield, regen, everything including the kitchen sink. Invis to break charm and (quickly) charm something else.
---> Cast root again on instant death machine.
2) Send new pet against instant death machine paying close attention to your pet's health....
---> Cast root again on instant death machine.
3) 40%, 25%, 15% INVIS and break charm! Nuke almost dead pet for full exp!
---> Cast root again on instant death machine
4) Find another fodder pet, repeat.


I wouldn't bother to buff the pet. Bards used this method for a long time. Find a group of 4 to 5 mobs. Charm one of them, and let the others beat it up. When it is low on health, invis to break charm. Charm the next one that is near full health. Have it kill the low on health one, and get beat up by the rest of the gang. Once you get to the last couple of mobs you have to play with who damages who, but ideally the last mob alive has low health and you can nuke it.
#6 Dec 03 2009 at 7:50 AM Rating: Good
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Funny that you should ask, I just happened to find one yesterday. Here's a link to it. My concern is it's 6 years old... I wonder if I should copy and paste the list here as well.

The Runes EQ forum post
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#7 Dec 03 2009 at 7:55 AM Rating: Good
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Pinzarn wrote:
Charm the next one, have it kill the low on health one, and get beat up by the rest of the gang


Quick clarification on this: I had understood that as a chanter I had to actually do damage to the mob to get full experience, is this mechanic the same for bards? If I break charm with a group of mobs on my former pet, won't they all run for me?
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#8 Dec 03 2009 at 8:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, I don't think swarm kiting for bards has as much application for enchanters. For a bard, you charm one mob and send it into a pack of 5+ others. Invis when your pet is at 5% or so and DoT it down the rest of the way. Pick your old pet's target (since it'll have the most aggro on you and was probably most wounded), charm, rinse & repeat.

However, this requires a lot of constant moving around. Stopping to recast charm or DoTs/Nukes would get you mowed over by a pack of angry critters. Maybe some gifted enchanters can pull it off but I wouldn't want to try.

Edited, Dec 3rd 2009 8:55am by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#9 Dec 03 2009 at 12:09 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quick clarification on this: I had understood that as a chanter I had to actually do damage to the mob to get full experience, is this mechanic the same for bards? If I break charm with a group of mobs on my former pet, won't they all run for me?


To get full damage, yes you need to do at least one point of damage. A level 1 dot works wonders for this (fast casting and low mana).

Joph is correct that this might be difficult for an enchanter. Perhaps dropping the number of mobs, selective use of mez and stun, instant cast invis potions, etc. would need to come into play.
#10 Dec 03 2009 at 4:53 PM Rating: Good
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Dire charm was a shiny new feature of PoP. PoP raised level cap from 60-65. Dire charm is purchasable at 59. DC is most powerful then, and diminishes in utility as you approach 65.

At 65 (considering spells that were added later and the fact that charming has been un-nerfed since OoW)the odds of the level 46 or lower DC able pet being the best charmable pet in the zone are unlikely.

Also, it doesn't appear much thought has been put into zones/content since PoP to ensure there is a bunch of easy DCable pets (easy to get to) in higher zones to use anyways. I would argue that Dire Charm is an orphaned feature... like many of the unique class spells from the 40-60 range.

A level 66 chanter that must have safe DPS from a pet is probably much further ahead with shiny bob (the animation). Same AA cost to make animation a smart pet vs. dire charm.

With the availablity of mercs, and the insane gear that means most under 75 content is being massively over-dpsed and mitigated (old mobs can't land spells on us most of the time now) for what it was originally built for... there really isn't a good reason for a chanter to not be charming "dangerous" pets in a group setting. Back in the day this was definately frowned upon in groups, but now it's almost laughable to not be using the charmed pet in the group with the lower content.

Also, until they fix it, you just have to cast boon of the garou on your animation and it will gain the attack commands of normal pets. This has been "broken" for some time, since they revised the pet window.
#11 Dec 03 2009 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Stopping to recast charm or DoTs/Nukes would get you mowed over by a pack of angry critters

This is the difference.

Break charm (I use Ring of Stealthy Travels) 2 seconds
Cast a damage spell to lock in the exp (I use Blue Ceramic Band) 3 seconds
Recharm ~ 4 seconds

All that while standing still, with the group bearing down on you - so yeah it's different than a bard who's always moving. I have to say for the record though that watching bards swarm kiting is just one of the truly awe inspiring things you can do in this game. I never got my bard high enough to try yet...

snailish wrote:
chanter that must have safe DPS from a pet is probably much further ahead with shiny bob (the animation). Same AA cost to make animation a smart pet vs. dire charm.

I haven't spent the pet AAs yet but I will. I hadn't considered that the animation's DPS was even in the same ballpark as a direcharm. The animation does seem to suffer in extremely low durability, but in a group setting it isn't getting hit anyway.

snailish wrote:
...and the insane gear that means most under 75 content is being massively over-dpsed and mitigated (old mobs can't land spells on us most of the time now) for what it was originally built for... there really isn't a good reason for a chanter to not be charming "dangerous" pets in a group setting. Back in the day this was definately frowned upon in groups, but now it's almost laughable to not be using the charmed pet in the group with the lower content.

This does depend on the group and their tolerance for charming shenanigans. Sometimes charms don't last long enough and you find yourself constantly tending the charm (I don't have the 'make charm better' AAs yet either).

As it stands now there is still a ton of things I can improve on through further AAs, and now that you've mentioned it snailish, I do suffer from old school mentality on risk assessment. I'm also still in the weird level range where I am hunting in zones where there is nothing else I can charm. By level 62 though, the new charm should let me at least go back to charming in Grieg's. I just want to try some dire charming in Veksar before I move on.

One last thing which hasn't come up yet - is it still the case that charmed mobs have their damage output reduced by 50%? This is the thing that makes the case for reverse charming if it is still true.
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#12 Dec 03 2009 at 6:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samatman wrote:
Break charm (I use Ring of Stealthy Travels) 2 seconds

Real swarm kiters use the Goblin Gazughi Ring! Smiley: grin
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#13 Dec 03 2009 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Real swarm kiters
That would make a nice guild name...

I should get one of those rings - I just have to be careful I don't take on EQ timesinks that burn me out. Wait... let me rephrase that - I suspect that finishing the chanter epic 1.0 would take less time.
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