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Rampage!Follow

#1 Aug 09 2005 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I find it frustrating to be in a group, as a healer, when people don't understand how rampage is established, and when the caster gets rampage, they claim it's not their fault. So, I'd like to help clarify how rampage is determined.

Most importantly, ramage has nothing to do with the amount of damage dealt. Regardless of whether 1 dmg or 10,000,000 dmg is dealt, rampage will not change*.

Here's the low-down: Rampage is based entirely on position in the mob's hate list. Specifically, whoever appears first on the mob's hate list, AND is not holding agro, WILL have rampage. If a mob is incoming to camp, currently only the puller (MT in this case) is on the hate list, if the mob is slowed or tash'd, or whatever, that character will then be rampage (when they don't have agro).

There are only a few circumstances where rampage can change targets. The first being, character with rampage dies; next character first on hate list, not holding agro, is new rampage target. The second circumstance deals with bouncing agro. If MT pulls a mob, and 2nd person to appear on mob's hate list grabs agro, then MT will be rampage until he/she regains agro, and then rampage will change to 2nd person on hate list (below MT).

Also, realize that if only one person is on the mob's hate list, a mob will still rampage. Rampage damage is not dealt if they are the only person on the hate list.

Finally, consider that most rampage has a range of 200. Most spells have a range of 200. Very few spells naturally have a longer range; mage bolt spell line comes to mind (but not limited to that). Obtain extended range items, practice casting at max range; this way, you will be able to hold rampage and avoid being hit. Healers will rejoice in your presence for being an elite, professional player.

Edit 1: minor clarification
Edit 2: major clarification, added here: Instead of rewriting the entire post, I'll just make the addendum here. Most of the above is correct, however, if a character is out of a mob's rampage range, the mob will select the next highest character on it's (Edit 3) Rampage (/Edit 3) list, who is in range, to be the new rampage target. Use extended range foci or 200+ range spells, to avoid being rampage target (if you'd otherwise be rampage, within the 200 range).

Edited, Tue Aug 9 15:16:05 2005 by tchzarmok

Edited, Tue Aug 9 15:21:59 2005 by tchzarmok

Edited, Wed Aug 10 11:31:04 2005 by tchzarmok
#2 Aug 09 2005 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Here's the low-down: Rampage is based entirely on position in the mob's hate list.

Actually, this is not correct. Its based on the order folks got aggro, not where they are on the hate list. This is why on mobs that rampage you have a rampage tank engage at the same time as the MT. Otherwise rage usually ends up on a healer or slower.

Only one way exists to change your position on rampage list: Camp out. Zoning will not do it. Doing more/less damage will not do it. Even dying and getting rezzed will not do it. If someone gets ramp that shouldnt, there only choice is to suck it up and take it, or move out of rampage range (200' I believe).

Here is a link on rampage and other aspects like enrage.

http://www.geocities.com/ivdraid/aspects.html


Edited, Tue Aug 9 15:33:58 2005 by dfrnchman
#3 Aug 09 2005 at 2:40 PM Rating: Decent
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With regards nocs in wos n mpg, just fight them sufficently far away from healers / casters and make sure u get extended range items :) Often pets get rampage then since they only ones closest.
#4 Aug 09 2005 at 4:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Its based on the order folks got aggro


I think you're splitting hairs. Your description and my interpretation mean the same thing to me. Position on the hate list (as per my interpretation) vs. order hate was generated, has no relative difference.

Aside from that semantic issue, I agree with everything you said and appreciate your post.
#5 Aug 09 2005 at 4:09 PM Rating: Good
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Position on the hate list (as per my interpretation) vs. order hate was generated, has no relative difference.

They are usually different if the puller is not the main tank.

Edited, Tue Aug 9 17:23:26 2005 by JoltinJoe
#6 Aug 09 2005 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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"Order the mob became aware of you" is vastly different from "order on hate list". Hate intensive characters like SKs and.. well.. me.. can move quickly up the list, but if the cleric drops a heal over time on the MA after he plinks the mob, Cleric is on Rampage until the Cleric dies.

I have seen a Druid casting a Damage Shield on the tank after the pull, but before contact, get the Druid on Rampage (and the Druid was being two boxed for the sole purpose of being the Rampage healer.. doh).

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Pretty sure Feign Death (in all at forms) will remove you from Rampage.

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In Tipt, we Calliav-ed the Necro pets, had the necro's FD and sent the pets after the Warrior had aggro. This locked all the pets on Rampage. With Calliav, and pet Enrage, this bought us enough time to kill the bastage with a single healer while he multi-K Rampaged all over the pets. Yet I could swear the other night went I sent my pet early on a Noc in MPG, while I was standing, *I* got Rampage (maybe I cast something before my pet hit.. but I am sure I got Rampage.. had to feign).

YMMV, but I have this unconfirmed feeling that you are your pet (unless you are feigning) for Rampage purposes. Love for someone smarter than me to confirm or deny.
#7 Aug 09 2005 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
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181 posts
From personal experience death removed me from rampage list. Zoning removed me from rampage list.

Feign death, after mem-blur occurred, removed me from rampage list. Pre-mem-blur it didn't.

However, thats from quite some time ago, so will check to see if anything has changed.

Ash
#8 Aug 09 2005 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
I understand now. I stand corrected. The order in which mob became aware of a PC is significantly more important than the current order of the hate list.

Now, I'm thinking of them as two separate lists, which, made it easier to understand. There is the agro list, and then there is the list tracking when the mob became aware of the pc.

In regards to FD clearing rampage, I've heard it does not, but I'm not a monk and my understanding of that is likely flawed.
#9 Aug 09 2005 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
I died to a Noc's rampage in MPG the other morning. I thought it was similar to enrage, that as long as you were out of melee range, you wouldn't die. I was pretty suprised when I saw "loading, please wait..." after I had backed away from the mob. Since I was main slower for the group at the time, the explanation made makes more sense to me, now. Thanks.
#10 Aug 10 2005 at 7:46 AM Rating: Decent
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429 posts
To my understanding and I may be Wrong the Agro list and hate list are one in the same. So for Rampage it all depends where you are on the list the higher you are the more likely you will get Rampage if in range. FD with waiting for mobs to forget you, Zoneing, and death/rez, memory blur, even a succro, will all clear the hate list.

Enrage on the otherhand is when the mob blocks any attack from the front and gets a free counter attack (reposite). Which is why experinced tanks stop attacking when mob enrages.
#11 Aug 10 2005 at 10:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
To my understanding and I may be Wrong the Agro list and hate list are one in the same.

A lot of the confusion with rampage is the way various terms get thrown around. "Aggro List" and "Hate List" are generally used one and the same. This is the list that determines in what order the mob will choose its targets for normal melee and most spells. Rampage is NOT determined by this list.
The "Rampage List" is the list the mob uses to determine who gets rampaged. This list is formed simply by the order in which players appear on its hate list. Unlike the hate list, folks do not move on this list. Once you are on the rampage list in a certain spot, you stay there until the mob dies, you camp out of the game, or the event in question (if applicable) resets. Dying may or may not get you off the list (Ive heard conflicting reports on this one). Samr for zoning out.
When a rampage attack goes off, this list is looked at. If the first person on the rampage list is also the first person on the hate list, the mob goes to the next person on the rampage list (i.e. whoever has aggro will not be hit by rampage). The highest person on the rampage list who is in range and does not presently have normal aggro gets hit by rampage.
#12 Aug 10 2005 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the Agro list and hate list are one in the same. So for Rampage it all depends where you are on the list the higher you are the more likely you will get Rampage if in range.


No, this is not the case. Damage dealt - as in, position on the hate list - has NOTHING to do with who is rampage and who will be next rampage.

If you're the last person, in a raid, to cause damage to the mob, yet you out-damage everyone else, even if you are in the top 3 positions on the hate list, the mob became aware of you 'last'; so, you would be the last possible rampage target.
#13 Aug 10 2005 at 11:44 AM Rating: Decent
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You have it.. completely seperate lists. Rampage based entirely on "order the Mob becomes aware of you" which is not limited to damage. Even benecial spells on someone that has aggro (like Damage Shields or my Heal over Time examples) will get you set on the Rampage list.

The Hate list (who the Mob whacks next) is effected by many things.. damage is just one. Take an Enchanter and chain cast Tash through an encounter. She never does damage, but pretty quickly no one will be able to pull the Mob off her (until she is dead).

FD certainly removes you from Rampage while you are down.. I FDed the other night at 40% cause it hurt. I stood up well before the 2 minute clear and the Mob was engaged so I was not forgotten. I could swear the Noc did not resume Rampaging me after I stood, but of course my logs are at home.
#14 Aug 10 2005 at 12:24 PM Rating: Good
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dfrnchman wrote:
"Aggro List" and "Hate List" are generally used one and the same. This is the list that determines in what order the mob will choose its targets for normal melee and most spells.


I bolded that specific word for a reason. I know we're talking mostly about Ramp here, but since we're on the topic of "lists", here's another one. Most of us know that there are seperate rampage and hate lists. There is something funny about spells though. Many pullers will eventually notice that mobs will cast spells on them (targetd, not AE) but they will have NEVER taken aggro throughout the fight. The first time I noticed this was in BoT. It has continued on throughout my career though and I now see it pretty much everywhere I pull. The mob may never aggro you (I used HoTT several times just to make sure) but he'll stop attacking, turn towards you and cast, then continue meleeing on the MT. I even experimented not doing ANYTHING after the pull, and mobs would still cast on me. I know I wasn't out aggroing the MT because I was just standing there with no songs playing, behind the healer. I know other bards have noticed this before also (I've talked about it on EQDiva, but that was LONG ago).

So, some of us believe that there is a magic "3rd" list that works very much like rampage, but is only for spells. The two places I've tested this the most are BoT and WoS (because so many of the mobs in both places cast single target spells) and it seems pretty consistent that after a fight, only me and the MT will be afflicted with the single target DoTs, even if I didn't get hit while incoming with the spell.

Off topic a bit I know, but I just wanted to throw that one out there.
#15 Aug 10 2005 at 12:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Douing Creators with another Necro friend.

HoTH on .. check.

I have rock solid aggro as displayed by HoTH.. but an Enchanter Drake stops and Recants my pet.. or the other Necro. All while I am his target (if ToTH is to be believed).

100% seen it, 100% agree there is something going on there.
#16 Aug 10 2005 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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There appears to be 3 lists.

1. Encounter/Rampage: The order in which the mob acknowledges you.
2. Agro/Hate: The order in which the mob hates you.
3. Magic/Spell: Seems to be linked or similar to encounter list. This could even be the same as the rampage listing.


Rampage is affected by memblur. We tried this out on an encounter. The MT agroed the mob and a druid healed him putting him on rampage. Everyone backed off the mob and it was memblured and the MT agroed again. Than the rampage tank agroed and was on rampage.
#17 Aug 10 2005 at 7:57 PM Rating: Decent
I've seen the "spell list" in nadox when soloing. My warder has aggro, but the mob turns and tries to malosi me, then turns around and continues beating on my pet. I don't mind that, tho. my pet is beating the crap out of him when he's casting on me :)
#18 Aug 11 2005 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm not sure if this "spell" list is any different from the normal hate list. I've seen this so often in LoY zones that I do not see anything remarkable in it. Mob casts a debuff on the tank and also debuffs others in range. Nothing special about that. Sitting seems to provoke it, but that may just be related to the fact that sitting increases aggro.
#19 Aug 11 2005 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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sarongor wrote:
I'm not sure if this "spell" list is any different from the normal hate list. I've seen this so often in LoY zones that I do not see anything remarkable in it. Mob casts a debuff on the tank and also debuffs others in range. Nothing special about that. Sitting seems to provoke it, but that may just be related to the fact that sitting increases aggro.


If you look closely at my post you'll see that in my tests the MT NEVER lost aggro. I also just stood there behind the cleric doing nothing (no songs, not sitting or attacking, just standing there, being the farthest toon in the group from the mob) and ONLY the MT and I came out with the single target DoTs, every time. There were the occasion where the slower or healer would draw aggro, but the HoTT would clearly show that and the mob would run over to melee them until the MT snapped aggro back. With me, he'd just stop meleeing, turn to me and cast (without HoTT changing to me) then continue meleeing. It most definately IS different then the normal hate list. Of course if the mob takes aggro on someone other then the MT, it COULD cast on them, but as I just stated, it shows them in the HoTT and that's usually due to an action that person took (slowing, healing, sitting, tashing, etc). I was getting casted on simply because I was the first one to aggro the mob, and nothing more.
#20 Aug 11 2005 at 5:40 PM Rating: Decent
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I've seen what Jiggidy is talking about as well. It seems to be the caster version of rampage. It's probably using the same list as rampage from what I've observed.
#21 Aug 11 2005 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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Don't you wish you could cast without retargeting. Seems it makes some of the leadership skills less than accurate, bug it every time, so SOE will fix it. Smiley: lol

It would be nice to have a "friendly" target and an "enemy" each targeted (sigh, Anarchy online does, so you can heal/buff friendlies and still keep fighting mobs).

I didn't know rampage or mob spells worked like this, great thread.
#22 Aug 12 2005 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Felicite wrote:
FD certainly removes you from Rampage while you are down.. I FDed the other night at 40% cause it hurt. I stood up well before the 2 minute clear and the Mob was engaged so I was not forgotten. I could swear the Noc did not resume Rampaging me after I stood, but of course my logs are at home.


So.. I got to test this again last night on an Elite Noc in MPG. I intentionally cast a DoT on it after the SK tagged it, before it reached camp. I was getting Rampage damage. After a few rounds, I FDed and popped right back up. No longer getting Rampaged. Asked the group (and watched the meters and gauages).. everyone said "he never Ramped me".. and I could not see anyone (or any pet) taking damage. For the rest of the fight.

I can't explain it, and it may fall into the "different Mobs behave differently" category, but FD cleared me from the Rampage list.. last night.
#23 Aug 12 2005 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
rampage is funny. it works differently everywhere.

in potime for instance, if the ramp tank runs out of range of ramp, he won't take damage, and the mob won't ramp anyone else.
#24 Aug 12 2005 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
After a few rounds, I FDed and popped right back up. No longer getting Rampaged. Asked the group (and watched the meters and gauages).. everyone said "he never Ramped me".. and I could not see anyone (or any pet) taking damage. For the rest of the fight.


I witnessed a similar event in MPG at 6 way... but I may have more information that could help demystify this process.

When our monk pulled a Noc, then tank got agro, monk became rampage - ok nothing new yet. If the monk FD's before the mob goes on a rampage, then a new eligible target is selected for rampage (whoever the mob noticed after tank took agro). BUT, if the monk FD's AFTER the mob goes on a rampage, it seems that no new rampage target is selected; no one is hurt by rampage. I can't say for sure if this is a repeatable pattern, but I feel confident in my observations.

Edit 1: While I have observed instances when rampage targets change as a result of FD, I was wrong about any perceived pattern, so far.

Edited, Sun Aug 14 21:20:54 2005 by tchzarmok
#25 Aug 12 2005 at 7:08 PM Rating: Decent
newbie question does the pet or the player get Rampage if it is a pet that is second toon to come up on the mobs radar.
#26 Aug 12 2005 at 7:15 PM Rating: Decent
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151 posts
the pet is an extension of the player, in terms of rampage. A necro in my group kept dying because monk would pull, tank grabs agro, necro sends in pet, monk FD's, necro dies from rampage. he never figured it out or he didnt care.

Edit 1: Although, if the pet owner was out of rampage range ( >200 ) when pet was sent to attack, pet may get rampage. Someone mentioned above using a tactic involving pets and rampage; so, clearly pets aren't immune from being rampage target.

Edited, Fri Aug 12 20:27:53 2005 by tchzarmok
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