Here's a possible solution to start now, STARTING FEBRUARY 1ST, ALL ITEMS THAT WERE ONCE SOLD FOR 100K+ SHOULD BE SOLD IN ZONES LIKE EC/GFAY. Take away the ability for IGE to use search bots and control high-end items, and the economy . If he wants them to sell then he's gonna have to work for it. Even if we can't stop him yet, we can at least make things more difficult until the time we can stop him.
Start doing it now! If everyone does it, then we can get things heading in the right direction.
-Imirik
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#153
Jan 30 2004 at 6:11 PM
3 posts
I'm no student of law and the broader issues raised outside the events in game, but there are suggestions to 'scrap' the bazaar to prevent automated economy fixing. My thoughts lead to maybe a control of the bazaar rather than removing it. It is a useful tool for those players who want to buy and sell as thier characters, and would be sorely missed; BUT, why not set a ceiling on the price a trader can quote? Say 50k. The majority of the trade still operates, without being a viable tool to any form of economy control, and anyone who still wants to trade the High end value items can do so, using channels, which requires human input, which 'players' have to exert and gives everyone a fair chance to find a bargain.
Apologies to anyone who has suggested this prior and likewise to anyone annoyed at repetition, but having read this as thoroughly as i could, I thinkthis is a fresh look at a previous idea.
Regards Sav
P.S. Imirik might be my psychic twin... /nods in approval
Edited, Fri Jan 30 18:16:20 2004 by Savaster
Apologies to anyone who has suggested this prior and likewise to anyone annoyed at repetition, but having read this as thoroughly as i could, I thinkthis is a fresh look at a previous idea.
Regards Sav
P.S. Imirik might be my psychic twin... /nods in approval
Edited, Fri Jan 30 18:16:20 2004 by Savaster
#154
Jan 30 2004 at 6:33 PM
3 posts
I have bought plat from IGE twice, but this situation never crossed my mind. Thx for the post, IGE won't be getting my cash anymore.
#155
Jan 30 2004 at 6:40 PM
3 posts
Lord xythex wrote:
Actually the fix is pretty simple when you have complete control over the game. It's a very small amount of accounts that buy over 1,000,000PP worth of the same items every day 10 seconds after they are listed, just as its a very small number of accounts that level to 65 in a week and then suddenly change their billing information, and log on from an IP halfway across the country. Very few naked toons on Ubisoft accounts recieve and then give away millions of PP to complete strangers they have never had interaction with before. It would be easy to watch those accounts, and spot the obvious IGE bots. SOE can cancel an account at any time at its discretion. They don't have to provide reasons.
this is very true.. as far as being able to track the players that are exploiting/manipulating the system. Verant can put an end to this, or at least put a kink in it.
i don't see verant caring enough for its customer base to do anything about it though. that's been proven through the years of horrible customer service.
#156
Jan 30 2004 at 6:51 PM
I really really don't want the bazaar to go away. I also will not avoid the bazaar. I could live with a cap, or some other solution, but to punish all of us who NEVER bought plat, by shutting down a very needed, fun part of EQ is just not reasonable.
Talk about giving the plat buyers/sellers control, just change the game completly for them, and soon I won't enjoy it either.
[edit] By the way, I have parsed my bazaar files. How hard would it be for the devs to look at trades of over 100,000 plat? Was the trade for a flask of water or a flowing thought item. You know they have log files, you know they can look through them for things like that.
SOE could fix this tomorrow IF they wanted to.
Edited, Fri Jan 30 18:57:21 2004 by Kelti
Talk about giving the plat buyers/sellers control, just change the game completly for them, and soon I won't enjoy it either.
[edit] By the way, I have parsed my bazaar files. How hard would it be for the devs to look at trades of over 100,000 plat? Was the trade for a flask of water or a flowing thought item. You know they have log files, you know they can look through them for things like that.
SOE could fix this tomorrow IF they wanted to.
Edited, Fri Jan 30 18:57:21 2004 by Kelti
#157
Jan 30 2004 at 7:03 PM
Well, you're not FORCED to buy anything. But if you want elemental type gear, or even the higher end luclin stuff you need to be in a VERY good guild. Otherwise it's just a part of the game you'll never see. Personally i don't care about real high end stuff. I just want my freaking epic! *grin*
#159
Jan 30 2004 at 7:39 PM
15 posts
Ahhh....this thread explains something that puzzled the devil out of me while looking for market prices on the bazaar. I've been playing this for a month, and have a grand total of 400 plats to my name...and that only because I discovered that folks would pay decent cash for silk swatches that my mid-20s druid could get from crag spiders.
Every once in awhile I'd see some otherwise cheap item I'd scrounged offered for sale for 100,000 plats. Now I get it; that's one way the plat traders swap off their cash. Seems as if it'd be fairly easy to close that one...
OhioDruid
Every once in awhile I'd see some otherwise cheap item I'd scrounged offered for sale for 100,000 plats. Now I get it; that's one way the plat traders swap off their cash. Seems as if it'd be fairly easy to close that one...
OhioDruid
#160
Jan 30 2004 at 7:42 PM
11 posts
This is Greywolfpack from Bertox, and I want to raise 2 issues that were completely missed in this thread and in the original post. These issues are real and I have witnessed them.
Nobody has mentioned the simple ideas that:
1. The elementally geared players can single group any mob that drops ornate armor.
2. The high end items like the BoC and SBoC and CoW can be had by these very same people with a single group.
3. High end guild leaders have the ability to equip a level 52 character to such a degree that these characters can solo Lady Vox and Nagefen, and then sell the Cloak of Flames in the bazaar.
4. These people - often friends, or even boxers, can then sell the platinum to IGE or Mysupersales for real dollars.
I won't offer any opinions, but I will say that I have witnessed all of these ideas made real first hand in the game. I have talked to two people on the phone - one that 5 boxes ornate dropping mobs, and one that simply has a solid group of friends who have played together for a long time, and that can easily single group these mobs that drop high end items. Both of these people sell the platinum on the web or to IGE or Mysupersales.
Lastly, about 6 months ago - I knew at least 10 people buying platinum on the web, which raised the demand substantially - as I was also trying to buy platinum to equip my warrior. All of the plat sellers were out... for a month, and then all of a suddeen - they had plenty of plat.
I had witnessed them in the bazaar /shouting Buying Plat for Dollars PST.
Took them a month - but they got it... lots of it. If they used an exploit - or maybe just convinced a high end group that they could make lots of money, or maybe they actually leveled and geared up 6 characters and then went and got the ornate.
Nobody has mentioned these ideas - and they are real, I've been KS'd by a group of 6 characters three times in Tactics on the Oversear. I'm 3 boxing, and have tried him a multitude of times charming boars and such. In busts a single group of elementally equipped chars - attack the oversear - while my pet is sitting right if front of it and the enchanter is getting a pet from the hall - wham, bam - he's dead, they gate out, Ornate armor for sale that night in the bazar.
The real problem as I see it - and I will express my opinion here, is that the gap between the average player, and the elementally equipped player is masive. There is no way to get there. You must join an uber guild and spend the next year getting drops in order to compete or to be equal with half of the characters on a server such as Bertox (an old server).
The game has gotten old, and those that have been playing for four or five years are gods to those that have been playing for 6 months or a year. And there is no opportunity to get your character on an even keel with them. There are no tradeskill items that you can make to gear your character beyond ornate. There is nothing else you can do, but join an uber guild.
All of the new tradeskill items are crap - geared for level 30 characters - given the current nature of the mobs you need to kill in order to gain experience or decent loot.
You can join pick-up raids - 30-70 people all rolling on the drops, but it will take you a year to equip your character decently compared to those elementally equipped characters.
And then there are those old players who have tired of the game - and sold their characters, often on mysupersales, and those characters are elementally equipped and have 300+ aa's. What if - Mysupersales and IGE said, "Hey, look at this demand!", "We could make a lot of money if we bought those accounts ourselves and then went and farmed ornate, and sold it in the bazaar!"
I know all about the macro programs out there, and the exploits - I submit to you the idea that there are much easier ways to get platinum.
Grey
Nobody has mentioned the simple ideas that:
1. The elementally geared players can single group any mob that drops ornate armor.
2. The high end items like the BoC and SBoC and CoW can be had by these very same people with a single group.
3. High end guild leaders have the ability to equip a level 52 character to such a degree that these characters can solo Lady Vox and Nagefen, and then sell the Cloak of Flames in the bazaar.
4. These people - often friends, or even boxers, can then sell the platinum to IGE or Mysupersales for real dollars.
I won't offer any opinions, but I will say that I have witnessed all of these ideas made real first hand in the game. I have talked to two people on the phone - one that 5 boxes ornate dropping mobs, and one that simply has a solid group of friends who have played together for a long time, and that can easily single group these mobs that drop high end items. Both of these people sell the platinum on the web or to IGE or Mysupersales.
Lastly, about 6 months ago - I knew at least 10 people buying platinum on the web, which raised the demand substantially - as I was also trying to buy platinum to equip my warrior. All of the plat sellers were out... for a month, and then all of a suddeen - they had plenty of plat.
I had witnessed them in the bazaar /shouting Buying Plat for Dollars PST.
Took them a month - but they got it... lots of it. If they used an exploit - or maybe just convinced a high end group that they could make lots of money, or maybe they actually leveled and geared up 6 characters and then went and got the ornate.
Nobody has mentioned these ideas - and they are real, I've been KS'd by a group of 6 characters three times in Tactics on the Oversear. I'm 3 boxing, and have tried him a multitude of times charming boars and such. In busts a single group of elementally equipped chars - attack the oversear - while my pet is sitting right if front of it and the enchanter is getting a pet from the hall - wham, bam - he's dead, they gate out, Ornate armor for sale that night in the bazar.
The real problem as I see it - and I will express my opinion here, is that the gap between the average player, and the elementally equipped player is masive. There is no way to get there. You must join an uber guild and spend the next year getting drops in order to compete or to be equal with half of the characters on a server such as Bertox (an old server).
The game has gotten old, and those that have been playing for four or five years are gods to those that have been playing for 6 months or a year. And there is no opportunity to get your character on an even keel with them. There are no tradeskill items that you can make to gear your character beyond ornate. There is nothing else you can do, but join an uber guild.
All of the new tradeskill items are crap - geared for level 30 characters - given the current nature of the mobs you need to kill in order to gain experience or decent loot.
You can join pick-up raids - 30-70 people all rolling on the drops, but it will take you a year to equip your character decently compared to those elementally equipped characters.
And then there are those old players who have tired of the game - and sold their characters, often on mysupersales, and those characters are elementally equipped and have 300+ aa's. What if - Mysupersales and IGE said, "Hey, look at this demand!", "We could make a lot of money if we bought those accounts ourselves and then went and farmed ornate, and sold it in the bazaar!"
I know all about the macro programs out there, and the exploits - I submit to you the idea that there are much easier ways to get platinum.
Grey
#161
Jan 30 2004 at 7:48 PM
I have an idea and it will not be one which is liked. I say Sony destroys all the money in the game but leaves the iteks. Then what they should do is watch. See which character is playing 24 hours a day or something that does not make much sense. What this will do is make all the IGE/Yantis people start over and see who is doing what. For example if someone makes pp to fast something funny is going on. We better look into it. Then for them to sell it they will need to give it to one character to transfer. That would e another flag why are all these people giving plat to this one guy. For this to work they would just need to do it and not tell anyone. So people just don't buy up stuff and then ***** the one legit guy. If they were to do this I think they should give everyone starting food and drink just in case someone is out. I know my spelling and gramar are bad but I think you see where my idea is heading.
#162
Jan 30 2004 at 7:51 PM
Okay, I have a comment about the "warping". I'm not saying I think the original post is bogus, just that people should have noticed something.
So if there are cheaters in the bazaar who warp to you and buy high end gear if you are selling it for less than their (really high) prices, and if these people are on at all frequently, then many, many people who have put items up for sale should have had them purchased instantly.
Has anyone experienced this?
I have not, but I don't deal with any items this high end.
Again, I don't want to undermine the seriousness of this kind of post. I think SOE should conduct "sting" operations and just buy plat from these guys and then ban the accounts and warn all accounts they had dealings with (see my post above).
Further, I'm sure it makes lots of sense for plat sellers who own basically a large chunk of plat in game to try to monopolize high end gear. Warping should be easy for SOE to find. Traders that automagically warp to buy high end gear should be easy to find and ban.
So if there are cheaters in the bazaar who warp to you and buy high end gear if you are selling it for less than their (really high) prices, and if these people are on at all frequently, then many, many people who have put items up for sale should have had them purchased instantly.
Has anyone experienced this?
I have not, but I don't deal with any items this high end.
Again, I don't want to undermine the seriousness of this kind of post. I think SOE should conduct "sting" operations and just buy plat from these guys and then ban the accounts and warn all accounts they had dealings with (see my post above).
Further, I'm sure it makes lots of sense for plat sellers who own basically a large chunk of plat in game to try to monopolize high end gear. Warping should be easy for SOE to find. Traders that automagically warp to buy high end gear should be easy to find and ban.
#163
Jan 30 2004 at 8:03 PM
15 posts
I admit I am not an uber player; Average at best (58 nec on Fennin Ro), so forgive me if I sound stupid, or bash me as is so typical.
I dont understand the point in play any more, plain and simple. I look around on Fennin, a looser server at best, in the opinion of many, and see that if it is like most servers, its rampent with a few people with way too much plat, fake or real (most likely fake). Prices have gone up 100% on most items, in some cases 200+% in auction and bazaar.
My question is this. Sony, why don't you simply cut off IGE (mysupersales). As a network engineer, I could advise you of how to do this but I am sure you have better and higher paid people of your own that know how.
For those that dont, I will offer the free idea. Since the system is most likely database run (few other things could handle the amount of information transferred around), simply track large plat transactions with no items involved or with all but a few items involved.
Example (and yes I know how it works, I have friends that have done it). Yolanda (example char) comes into the bazaar, Supersalesman comes into the bazaar. They walk up, supersalesman hands Yolanda 100kp for nothing and camps out. That is all it takes to flag that transaction. Now since that transaction was flagged, the IP address was recorded as well as the account information.
Now I know what you are thinking, but hear me out. Yes some people loan each other plat, I have done it. But how many honestly just walk up and repeated hand out 100kp to 1000kp. No one unless they are cheating or a GM (where is that guy when I need him).
So now I have dozens, maybe even hundreds of these transactions happening a week. I look at the accounts and IP addresses being used. Most likely similar. First, I cancell the accounts of both the players involved (sorry but you cheated Yolanda). Then I look at the IP address of supersalesman and Filter it from the sony network. My supersales cant get back in from that office again.
Yes, I understand that supersalesman may have been using AOL or MSN or one of the thousands of other providers out there that use DHCP instead of static addresses. But be realistic, they have enough money to have a T1, which is most likely going to be a static address.
Thus, you have eliminated the fake platinum, the people involved in transferring it, IGE for selling it (can we say lawsuit over terms of use). Oh yeah, and since Sony is far bigger, they most likely have a court order in a week that had IGE disconnected from a major ISP.
Then wait, no fake plat, no where to buy plat (EBAY got out before they got sued), and well, things start to come back down. Supply and demand.
Oh yeah, and for those that want to get rid of the bazaar, not a half bad idea, except that we dont need any more screen spam then we have already.
Sony be real, IGE are hackers attacking your revenue source, any other company would filter them out so fast and have a lawsuit slapped on them in a heartbeat.
My two copper worth since thats about all I have.
If anyone has a way for sony to read this, please pass it along.
I dont understand the point in play any more, plain and simple. I look around on Fennin, a looser server at best, in the opinion of many, and see that if it is like most servers, its rampent with a few people with way too much plat, fake or real (most likely fake). Prices have gone up 100% on most items, in some cases 200+% in auction and bazaar.
My question is this. Sony, why don't you simply cut off IGE (mysupersales). As a network engineer, I could advise you of how to do this but I am sure you have better and higher paid people of your own that know how.
For those that dont, I will offer the free idea. Since the system is most likely database run (few other things could handle the amount of information transferred around), simply track large plat transactions with no items involved or with all but a few items involved.
Example (and yes I know how it works, I have friends that have done it). Yolanda (example char) comes into the bazaar, Supersalesman comes into the bazaar. They walk up, supersalesman hands Yolanda 100kp for nothing and camps out. That is all it takes to flag that transaction. Now since that transaction was flagged, the IP address was recorded as well as the account information.
Now I know what you are thinking, but hear me out. Yes some people loan each other plat, I have done it. But how many honestly just walk up and repeated hand out 100kp to 1000kp. No one unless they are cheating or a GM (where is that guy when I need him).
So now I have dozens, maybe even hundreds of these transactions happening a week. I look at the accounts and IP addresses being used. Most likely similar. First, I cancell the accounts of both the players involved (sorry but you cheated Yolanda). Then I look at the IP address of supersalesman and Filter it from the sony network. My supersales cant get back in from that office again.
Yes, I understand that supersalesman may have been using AOL or MSN or one of the thousands of other providers out there that use DHCP instead of static addresses. But be realistic, they have enough money to have a T1, which is most likely going to be a static address.
Thus, you have eliminated the fake platinum, the people involved in transferring it, IGE for selling it (can we say lawsuit over terms of use). Oh yeah, and since Sony is far bigger, they most likely have a court order in a week that had IGE disconnected from a major ISP.
Then wait, no fake plat, no where to buy plat (EBAY got out before they got sued), and well, things start to come back down. Supply and demand.
Oh yeah, and for those that want to get rid of the bazaar, not a half bad idea, except that we dont need any more screen spam then we have already.
Sony be real, IGE are hackers attacking your revenue source, any other company would filter them out so fast and have a lawsuit slapped on them in a heartbeat.
My two copper worth since thats about all I have.
If anyone has a way for sony to read this, please pass it along.
#164
Jan 30 2004 at 8:11 PM
The items you list are not items that would more than likely be running on this program... I'm thinking it would be more like 10k plus normal items selling for 2-3k cheaper than there normal market value.. Maybe some Ornate Chain Gloves selling for 30-35k instead of 40-45k or a fungi selling for 55-60k instead of 65-80k or a Flayed Barbarian skin mask selling for 100k instead of 150k.... these items would be traced on the program probably before silks and other low profit items.... Just my 2cp though
Veteran Vanderath Dragula
65 Assassin of Nuage
Grand Master of the Poison Trade
Pirate Lord of Povar-- Dead Men Tell No Tales
Veteran Vanderath Dragula
65 Assassin of Nuage
Grand Master of the Poison Trade
Pirate Lord of Povar-- Dead Men Tell No Tales
#165
Jan 30 2004 at 8:35 PM
1 post
On the innourok server ornate patterns sell for around 10k-20k depending on piece. Just my 2cp...
-------------------
Taedar, 65 wood elf druid
-------------------
Taedar, 65 wood elf druid
#166
Jan 30 2004 at 8:57 PM
Let's all pick a b*tch to SOE day, & use petition. Then we go to the SOE site and all leave a message. We could even call them.
And I have worked VERY hard for my money, saving for a decent horse or drog. I have NOT bought any plat, and I would not be happy if they stole all my savings, or closed the bazaar. I don't expect paying, non-cheating customers to be punished because of some pathetic cheaters.
I am absolutely sure that it would be fixed almost instantly if SOE thought it would cost them enough. If enough players get fed up it WILL cost them. If I have to leave EQ I won't be back for anymore of SOE's games.
And I have worked VERY hard for my money, saving for a decent horse or drog. I have NOT bought any plat, and I would not be happy if they stole all my savings, or closed the bazaar. I don't expect paying, non-cheating customers to be punished because of some pathetic cheaters.
I am absolutely sure that it would be fixed almost instantly if SOE thought it would cost them enough. If enough players get fed up it WILL cost them. If I have to leave EQ I won't be back for anymore of SOE's games.
#167
Jan 30 2004 at 8:57 PM
I agree this is a great post .... and your reply about selling in-guild caught my eye. This was brought up for discussion sometime ago, about allowing guilds to have their own bankers without the restrictions of the 16-slot bank, or having to set up a special account for banking needs. Would really love to see this happening as it is one of the ways to cut down on the "control" exerted by corporations out to exploit players.
That being said, these exploiters are sure to come up with a counter to that tactic as well, eventually. I guess I'll just have to play the game as best I can without all those uber items :(
Deanorn on Quellious
That being said, these exploiters are sure to come up with a counter to that tactic as well, eventually. I guess I'll just have to play the game as best I can without all those uber items :(
Deanorn on Quellious
#168
Jan 30 2004 at 9:18 PM
7 posts
For crying out loud!! HELLO!!! YOU are part of the problem. There is no one forcing you to buy their plat, pal. Quit giving them your money. Earn it yourself, remember this game requires patience!!
#169
Jan 30 2004 at 9:36 PM
4 posts
"[i][/i]There are several great ideas here on how to fix the problem. The best in my opinion are to put the price maximum at 100,000pp in the bazaar, which will slow and hinder the controllers to make the whole effort less profitable, or to change the bazaar."[quote][/quote]
This is exactly what I was thinking as well, although I would put the figure at 20-50k personally, whatever the figure good idea overall.
I have another idea on this, a bit more extreme of which I will start a new thread "Lore-Drop"
This is exactly what I was thinking as well, although I would put the figure at 20-50k personally, whatever the figure good idea overall.
I have another idea on this, a bit more extreme of which I will start a new thread "Lore-Drop"
#170
Jan 30 2004 at 9:36 PM
10 posts
just read about 1/3 of this thread... ive got a headache from &^%$ now. I could really use some tylenol so im going to haul a$$ to the store and hope IGE/yantis hasnt hijacked the pharmacutical market too!
#171
Jan 30 2004 at 10:39 PM
What a great Post ..Very well written and thought out. People will use any and all means available to them to gain any advantage over another.
Edited, Fri Jan 30 22:40:30 2004 by korcewool
Edited, Fri Jan 30 22:40:30 2004 by korcewool
#172
Jan 30 2004 at 10:54 PM
2 posts
Heya all,
Great job on original post! One major way to combat this is to rid Norrath of the Bazaar. As much as I rely on the bazaar for tradeskill items the Bazaar was the beginning of the end for the EQ economy. You now no longer need to 'work' at sell your wares. There was ALWAYS high priced items in game like ornate etc it just took so much more work to sell it in good old EC tunnel (or where ever your server did it) . Put a bank in EC tunnel and take away afk sellers that would rid a lot of the troubles.
Now my second thought. I hear lots of "SOE doing this to kill EQ cause EQ2 coming out". Do you seriously think that is going to stop IGE/Yantis?? Get real, they now have the $$ backing them from EQ to go onto EQ2 and exploit that in same way as EQ. Personally I will not go to EQ2 as SOE has proven to me time and again that they don't care. It will be same thing in EQ2 don't kid yourselves.
Great job on original post! One major way to combat this is to rid Norrath of the Bazaar. As much as I rely on the bazaar for tradeskill items the Bazaar was the beginning of the end for the EQ economy. You now no longer need to 'work' at sell your wares. There was ALWAYS high priced items in game like ornate etc it just took so much more work to sell it in good old EC tunnel (or where ever your server did it) . Put a bank in EC tunnel and take away afk sellers that would rid a lot of the troubles.
Now my second thought. I hear lots of "SOE doing this to kill EQ cause EQ2 coming out". Do you seriously think that is going to stop IGE/Yantis?? Get real, they now have the $$ backing them from EQ to go onto EQ2 and exploit that in same way as EQ. Personally I will not go to EQ2 as SOE has proven to me time and again that they don't care. It will be same thing in EQ2 don't kid yourselves.
#174
Jan 30 2004 at 11:18 PM
3 posts
Quote:
So if there are cheaters in the bazaar who warp to you and buy high end gear if you are selling it for less than their (really high) prices, and if these people are on at all frequently, then many, many people who have put items up for sale should have had them purchased instantly.
I have had items purchased from me in a matter of seconds after starting /trader in bazaar. I play a 65 enchanter on the Prexus server, and I am pretty good about placing my price well below the current "lowest" value that people are currently selling that item for in bazaar. This "instantaneous" buying has happened to me on 4 occasions that I can remember at this time, and I know that it was always a higher end item that was the first to go (and these purchases happened within the last 2 months). (oh, the items were all ornate, 2 plate bracers, and 2 silk sleeves)
ehh, I thought it was just some super coincedence, hehe, but I tend to be a little naive sometimes. :p I don't know how this could be stopped, I'm not some super "computer guru", but I do know that it's really frustrating, because I wanted to save to buy ornate silk bracelet's, but I'm not about to pay 150k each for them, which was the last price I saw one going for when I was in bazaar about 2 weeks ago.
#176
Jan 30 2004 at 11:41 PM
20 posts
heimdall, Eater of Souls wrote:
Also I checked the link earlier, or in another thread that said there was an overseas precedent that virtual property belonged to the player, not the host, and it didn't say that. It said he was suing over that issue, not whether any decision has been handed down yet.
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_812039.html
http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994510
as I said, the decision was made in favor of the person who brought suit.
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